Open Letter to all Steemians - Hardfork 21: Culture Change


Hello Everyone. As many of you know, hardfork 21 is next week.

What to expect

This hardfork is going to be a big deal. Not just because of all the economic changes that are going into effect, but because there is an opportunity for us to make a major change.

Hardfork 21 = bad?

I know there is a lot of negativity surrounding this hardfork. There are a lot of people who are concerned about how this will affect the "little guy" (average user) and how it opens up more potential avenues for abuse.

I suspect a lot of people will think that because I am voting in support of the hardfork that I am not listening to these concerns, but I assure you - it is quite the opposite. I am very concerned about those things as well. Despite those concerns, I am still strongly in favor of the hardfork.

In my view, hardfork 21 is exactly what we need in order for all Steemians ("little guy" included) to succeed.

Here is my view

Steem in it's current form is broken. It has tremendous potential, but for whatever reason(s), it has not and is not living up to that potential. It is not broken beyond repair, but we cannot keep doing what we have been doing for the past 3+ years and expect different results. Things need to change.

Stakeholders vs. Users

Our community needs to realize that we need both groups in order to be successful.

  • Users need stakeholders to buy STEEM in order for their rewards to have any value.
  • Users also need stakeholders to vote on their content if they want to earn any rewards.
  • Stakeholders need users to be telling all of their friends and family about how great this place is in order to draw more people to the platform.
  • Stakeholders also need users to produce quality content that attracts outside eyeballs to Steem and shows off the potential of our platform.

Users: Start thinking about what you can do to make this place more attractive for stakeholders.

Stakeholders: Start thinking about what you can do to make this place better for users.

Why is Steem broken?

Blame Steemit for the ninja mine. Blame stakeholders for not putting the needs of the community above their own self interests. Blame witnesses for being lazy and not doing more to improve the platform. Blame users for leaching off the system and producing little of value. Blame Steemit for not making enough improvements to the platform over the years. Blame the "alt coin bear market". Blame abusive stakeholders who drove users away. Blame the lack of marketing.. Blame, blame, blame. There is plenty of it to go around.

Diagnosing Steem's issues

There have been lots of discussions on Steem's issues and what to do about them since before I got here (~3 years ago). There is no shortage of ideas on what is wrong and how to fix it.

I have (literally) spent hundreds of hours hashing out ideas with various stakeholders, other witnesses, and employees of Steemit, Inc. trying to figure out how to fix this place.

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but some of the top issues include:

  • It is too hard for new users to get noticed.
  • The platform is too confusing.
  • Signups are too difficult to onboard at scale.
  • There is a lack of funding (outside of Steemit, Inc.) to pay for community development and marketing.
  • Users who contribute a lot of value are not sufficiently rewarded.
  • Users who don't contribute a lot of value find ways to milk the system.
  • There is not enough of an incentive to buy and hold STEEM.

Hardfork 21

Hardfork 21 does not attempt to solve all of our issues, but it does provide us with tools to make a pretty significant dent in many of them.

Here is how HF21 is supposed to work:

  • Curation is now more profitable, so there is more reason to buy STEEM and power up.
  • Members of the community who have good ideas and are willing to put in work to improve the platform will have a mechanism to get paid for it.
  • Stakeholders will have a means to earn higher returns on their investment by doing something that is good for the platform (curating) as opposed to something that is arguably not (funding bid bots).
  • Curators who see content that is not adding value will downvote it, because it is taking rewards away from everybody else.
  • Curation communities and voting trails will form to hunt for undiscovered content and upvote it in order to earn higher curation rewards.
  • Authors who are producing good quality content will have a higher chance of being noticed, because now more people are actually looking for good content.

Here is the 20 billion dollar question:

Can we do it?

...

I believe we can.

Hardfork 21 alone is not going to get us there, but it at least gives us the tools we will need to achieve it.

What will it take?

The simple answer is we need a culture change. We need users and stakeholders to start working together to build the platform and community that we want.

Every Steemian is going to have lots of choices to make after the hardfork. Where we end up will be a culmination of all those choices.

Change takes time

One thing to keep in mind, is change takes time. I know a lot of people will get frustrated when their utopian view of Steem does not come to fruition in the days, weeks, or even months right after the hardfork. The key is to not loose hope, and to keep working towards our shared goal.

Where do we go from here?

The reason I joined Steem and the reason I still continue to be an active part of the community is because of the huge potential that I see here. I want STEEM to be a top 10 cryptocurrency. I want us to scale to millions+ of users. I want Steem to be as popular (if not more) than Facebook.

Closing thoughts

What I ask of all of you going into the hardfork, and in the days, weeks, and months after is this:

Start to dream about what this place should look like in order to be a top 10 cryptocurrency and attract millions of users. When you are using the platform, align your actions with that vision. Do things that bring us closer to the goal, and fight against things that take us away from it.

With HF21, we will have the tools we need to get us there.

No more excuses. It is up to us.


Comments 280


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23.08.2019 01:45
0

Awesome post, Tim!

I am very much in the same boat with you and I agree with most of your views. I am hoping the use of downvotes will increase but not the use of unfair downvotes. I am hoping people will see the long term potential of Steem like many others of us do and start investing back at these prices (especially smaller users - this is your and our chance at a great distribution even though we are one of the best distribution currencies out there already and it will hopefully only get better with HF21 - get there before the whales pick it all up). I hope there will be some projects that will use other people's downvotes wisely and unbiased and that we get downvote delegation pool possibly on the next HF with SMT's to mitigate blind retaliation and at the same time I hope projects will spawn that will counter such retaliation and that people find value in that and assist it with stake.

I could go on and on about things I hope will start to occur after Tuesday but don't wanna make this comment too long. Let's unite as likeminded people and protect the rewardpool, our fellow users and show the world what we have here and welcome them with open arms. There is still nothing compared to Steem while all the older centralized giants are only getting worse and worse, it is our time to shine.

23.08.2019 01:57
16

Maybe it's just me but I can't imagine a single person (outside your circle jerk) who will buy STEEM to vote for you. What do you think?

23.08.2019 06:49
4

I doubt that you bought a single STEEM.

23.08.2019 08:56
4

Maybe it's just me but I can't imagine a single person (outside your circle jerk) who will buy STEEM to vote for you. What do you think?

23.08.2019 16:06
6

The concept is that we use inflation to reward social media users, the way companies give out free pizzas.

As more gather others build things for them to do: SteemMonsters, Gambling, Silly Games.. You know the kind people play every day on Facebook.

Where people gather they begin to buy, sell and trade. (The Network effect)

Usually in investing the concept is to raise the value of the thing you bought.

Not drain the value in a huge ponzi scheme.

I get that most "traders" who like to call themselves investors don't really get the concept of investment. Which means... You put money and effort into something that is getting better so you can take more money out later.

By later I don't mean tomorrow. :)

While you can say people buy steem to vote for you that is an over simplified version. I don't blame you for getting stuck on it, because SteemIt Inc has done a terrible job of painting a vision.

It was never supposed to be the endusers who buy tons of Steem. Their presence is essential if you want the next steps to happen.

Anyway, have a great day.

23.08.2019 17:19
3

Who are you? Who are we? Could you please explain why you and your friends are draining the value in a huge Ponzi scheme? Most of you didn't buy single STEEM, but that's why you know best what to do to increase the price. Do you think that everyday posting (shit) brings any value to STEEM? Your shit is better than mine. For sure. But what about others. You can't keep (with few votes) here any real author with that concept. You should have understood that by now.

I didn't want to shitpost here. That was my response to bots and "friendly users" which blocked my friends here. You should stick with blockchain neutrality. This is the only thing that distinguishes Steem from other social networks. I'm afraid it's too complicated for you. You crave power, so you have increased the power of down-voting. Mao Zedong would be proud.

23.08.2019 20:44
7

Are you against the free market?

24.08.2019 01:55
0

People build websites and attract users every single day there are many models for doing it. This isn't rocket science or even anywhere near as hard as we were making it.

I was buying for a while and I also could buy more, I don't because of this... Too many stakeholders who think they can milk profits out without building anything.

24.08.2019 06:30
1

"Do you think that everyday posting (shit) brings any value to STEEM?"

Social media has proved to be the best business model in the world today. The FAANGs have proved this by exceeding the market cap of other businesses, and very quickly.

People interact and create society, and an economy is part of society. It is not the most important aspect of society, and extracting rewards isn't why most people use social media.

Extracting rewards by self voting, buying votes, and so forth, reduces the monetary value of the Steem token, because it extracts that social value before it can inure to the underlying investment vehicle.

Profiteering produces ROI, and before Steem it has long been the business model of outfits like Bain Capital, KK&R, and other firms that buy a controlling stake in a company and sell the assets of the company, profiting thereby. This destroys the companies they buy, but they make money, so it's all good from their perspective.

That's what is happening on Steem, but the forges and equipment of Steem are authors, and they can't be sold. HF21 is going to increase the incentive to profiteer on Steem, and further decrease the value of Steem. If we want capital gains, we need to reduce the incentive to extract rewards by self voting, selling votes, and so forth, allowing rewards to encourage creators and produce capital gains.

Mitt Romney would be proud.

24.08.2019 07:12
3

Exactly.

24.08.2019 01:54
0

I get that most "traders" who like to call themselves investors don't really get the concept of investment.

They just aren't real investors but wannabe short term profiteers.

24.08.2019 02:53
7

"Usually in investing the concept is to raise the value of the thing you bought."

"Not drain the value in a huge ponzi scheme."

Capital gains are reduced by profiteering. Warren Buffet and Bernie Madoff both made ROI. The former builds things up, and the latter destroyed them.

24.08.2019 07:02
1

"...we are one of the best distributed currencies out there..."

I do not think this is the case. Do you have a source for this?

Thanks!

24.08.2019 06:58
1

To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.

Brought to you by @tts. If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.

23.08.2019 02:01
0

One of the serious problems I see with this platform is the little or no advertising out there. We are a closed circle that waits for people to come, without thinking that we can also go out and look for users. There's a lot of talent here. So I trust that this new stage of STEEM will be for the good of all and not for the fat and few killer whales that exist. Greetings

23.08.2019 02:03
5

Most successful social networks and internet platforms generally have relied relatively little on advertising for their growth. It is sometimes used, but only sparingly as a narrowly targeted boost to an existing growth engine. Without being able to organically grow through word of mouth, as well as retain users who do join, advertising can just turn into a huge money pit.

If we are able to crack the growth engine challenge and show that a particular form of advertising has a sustainable positive return, then funding for it can be proposed through the SPS (part of this hardfork).

23.08.2019 02:37
2

I wouldn't count on organic growth. Most Steemians are pseudonymous or anonymous and do not want anyone in the walking world to know about their activities on Steem. Why? First of all, I'm betting over 90% of Steemians are not paying income tax on their Steem income. Everyone in their circle of relatives, friends and acquaintances being able to go to Steemworld to look at the entire history of their financial transactions on Steem would be begging for trouble with the IRS or whatever the tax authority is called in their country. Secondly, not many people would necessarily want their spouses or employers to know about earning some extra on the side. So, forget about most people telling people in the walking world about Steem let alone persuading them to join. In most people's opinion, Steem is way good to be true to begin with anyway. Many people think it must be a scam.

I don't think Steem is done for, however, and that there is no chance for growth. I think if Steem is ever going to have millions of users, those users will be completely cut off from the reward pool and be posting through guest accounts or only having a wallet address (a lite account) at their disposal. They will be players of games like Splinterlands and paying for it. Producing content will always be done by a very small number of people. They will be professionals earning big rewards. Those of us who have been lucky enough to have participated in the beta phase of Steem as bloggers earning dollars on blog posts about our cat or something like that will be able to make money by renting out our Resource Credits to apps that have large numbers of paying customers.

23.08.2019 06:50
2

Do people prefer getting banned on Facebook than being on Steem?

24.08.2019 02:02
0

The vast majority of people are not getting banned anywhere.

24.08.2019 12:12
0

Millions and millions of people.

25.08.2019 10:28
0

Where are they?

And what proportion would you really want here? Many of them are kooks you wouldn't want to associate with.

25.08.2019 14:36
0

I am one of them. Just ask around. I was banned many places. So many people are writing about it. The fake news is lying to you and you are falling for the fake news, good for you.

25.08.2019 20:31
0

I know some people are being banned from mainstream platforms, perhaps many in total. But how many are on Steem? I've been trying to get YouTubers who complain about being shadow banned on YouTube and who know people who have been banned to join Steem (DTube) but all I've got is total silence.

I congratulate you on finding Steem.

25.08.2019 21:36
0

Thanks. In the next year, hopefully we will be up to two million accounts for Steem, as of 2020, at least.

26.08.2019 03:21
0

I don't know that I agree with all of your generalizations. There are many bloggers and others on Steem who are not anonymous.

I agree that earning rewards can't be the main draw.

24.08.2019 02:46
0

Yes, there are some people on here that are not anonymous. And yes, having one social account under one's real name separated from the money and having multiple accounts for various purposes including delegating to projects, curating etc. might actually become a trend.

I'm glad we're on the same page about rewards not being able to be the main draw. The math wouldn't work if the idea were that the rewards would amount to anything too big. But I would love it if Steem apps with real accounts owned by their users put a stop to the power of social media giants and cause the profits to trickled down back to the masses. I'd really love to see that. But the way people I know from IRL have received these ideas has been a massive disappointment to me.

24.08.2019 12:18
0

" Producing content will always be done by a very small number of people."

That's not how social media works.

24.08.2019 07:24
0

I should've specified that I meant content that earns anything. Sorry about not being clear.

24.08.2019 12:13
0

It's still completely wrong. Fakebook, Youtool, and so on and so forth prove that people participating in social media is the most profitable business model in the world today.

24.08.2019 12:52
0

What is completely wrong? That I claimed that user love those platform despite it not paying anything to them? That statement is precisely correct. You don't get paid for using Facebook, YouTube or any of the big mainstream social media platforms. And yes, those platforms are hugely profitable - to their owners. The users use them and do not expect to get paid a single cent. The whole concept is so alien to them that when you talk about earning crypto by blogging on Steem, their eyes will go completely blank - or they'll assume it's a scam.

24.08.2019 15:52
0

" Producing content will always be done by a very small number of people."

This is completely wrong. It remains completely wrong even if you moderate it by adding monetary rewards. Steem was but the first social media platform that potentiated monetary rewards, but it is not the only one anymore. The monetization of content by users has just begun.

25.08.2019 16:48
0

I already specified that I meant content that gets paid to any meaningful extent.

Why do we have to repeat this?

Monetization of content by users is nothing new. It's been going on centralized platforms for a decade and a half. It's just that on Steem users have benefited from being early adopters in a cryptocurrency project. Bring aboard a couple of hundred million users and you can rest assured very few authors will be pocketing any kind of meaningful income. The math simply won't work.

Facebook is worth about $500 billion. It has about two billion users. The uppermost bound to how much the average Facebook account could be worth is about $500. Take away the value of the infrastructure and you'll be left somewhat less. But that's a very top heavy distribution. The value of an account is probably heavily dependent on how connected it is to a network of other well-connected accounts. What that means is that the accounts of celebrities and major corporations can be extremely valuable whereas the ordinary person posting about his/her lunch and cat will be vastly less valuable. Yes, even something like $100 would be something but it wouldn't allow the average person to generate any kind of meaningful income.

25.08.2019 17:46
0

What's profitable about them is the stalking, tracking, collecting of data and creation of profile for the ad customers. There is no data collected here a user is not giving away willingly by putting it on the chain. And Wahlberg they put there is freely visible for everyone. No way you could compare the two models.

24.08.2019 19:21
1

People posting family pics aren't doing so to make Facebook money. The reasons people use social media are generally unrelated to ROI, and the focus on monetization has been a mistake on Steem, from the standpoint of onboarding masses of people. It has attracted a particular market segment, and not the mass market, which is not seeking mere economic return from using social media, but more valuable aspects of society.

The models are comparable with trivial facility. The market segments served by social media are difficult of compare, because of the complexity of society, not because of the marked differences between social media platforms, whose differences are relatively small.

25.08.2019 16:53
0

I was replying to your statement that social media is the most profitable business model.

There's no question that the focus on monetization for the users was a mistake, and I've always said so. It's not the content providing the value on the other platforms, it's just the vehicle to make people give away their profiles. Content here has no value in itself either. It can bring more eyeballs, but that only creates costs for the interface operators, or some revenue if they manage to sell adspace. But it cannot be used as a vehicle like at other platforms.
Even if steem had an interface appealing to the mass market, there'd still be no money to be made from that for the users.

The only thing giving steem (monetary) value is use cases for the token itself. RC and curation rewards are such, if they create enough demand by themselves is not clear yet.

25.08.2019 18:21
1

I am very reluctant to use the SPS for marketing proposals. When dealing with marketing, everything is in the grey, there are no clear results, and we don’t know what causes new users to sign in.

We might be funding some person for marketing, then notice an increase in user growth and attribute that growth to him. While in reality it was just organic growth with which he has nothing to do.

This will keep us trapped into paying him for a useless job.

Posted using Partiko iOS

23.08.2019 15:57
1

All fair points. No doubt we will have to learn and come to stakeholder consensus over good and bad uses for SPS.

24.08.2019 02:45
1

I have made a comment under @exyle’s last post. Is it possible for you to read it? I want to reach influential people on steem because I really think this might be a huge issue.

Posted using Partiko iOS

24.08.2019 10:39
0

Some interesting thoughts. I've generally been in favor of a much shorter power down time (whatever is needed to avoid exploits which seems to be something like 5 days), but there isn't consensus for it. Perhaps with continued discussion and comments such as yours more consensus can be built.

24.08.2019 18:32
1

Consider this: in the recent bitcoin run up from 3k to 13.7k I’ve had some friends calling, wanting to get in. I advised them not to.

They still wanted though and sent money to their new coinbase account. On this day Bitcoin was at 13.7k. Fortunately, the bank transfer took a while to complete, and when their money was received on coinbase bitcoin was already at 10.8 k. A much better price. The waiting time also allowed them to gain some perspective, and not to buy bitcoin with all the money they sent, since it’s not going straight up anymore. Now the price is even lower. the bank transfer only took two days.

This was great for them, but bad for the bitcoin price and its hodlers. The two day EOS powerdown will similarly protect people who panic at the bottom. And the volume is always the largest by far at the exact bottom and top. So even that short powerdown will help the weak hands, and will be bad for the hodlers of the coin.

However, it’s already wayyy better than a 13 week powerdown, which is also slowly released, allowing dollar cost averaging. With this, we are creating large amounts of selling pressure and for longer times, while the buying pressure will naturally go down as a bear market develops.

Weak hands will sell their holdings for dollar values that are multiple times greater than in the alternative (if they panic sold).

This issue is a must-solve. Since it hit me I can’t ignore it. It also provides benefits in other ways. It won’t discourage investors from buying steem (who see the long time needed to powerdown), and it might enable us to add a small fee of burned steem, a nice sink. However those positives are minor compared to the market mechanics described above.
Posted using Partiko iOS

24.08.2019 18:55
2

Steem has been progressively killing it's marketing department. The folks making posts and comments have been demonetized by stake weighted profiteers, and driven off. Adding a 10% tax on top of halving author rewards and the modified rewards curve will but increase that demonetization.

24.08.2019 07:27
0

The folks making posts and comments and earning rewards from them (which includes a great many comments, including some one-character comments, posted solely for the purpose of self-upvoting) are not an effective marketing department with how things have been going.

I prefer to think of this as an attempt at a reboot than as an incremental change of X% here or Y% there. The only way it will make any real difference in Steem's trajectory is if it helps to inspire major changes in the overall platform, community, and economy. If the biggest change is percentages then we'll continue circling the drain anyway.

24.08.2019 07:51
0

Word of mouth is the most effective marketing. Ask any marketer. However, as profiteering discouraged folks that made the effort to come here, the effect of that marketing was to discourage new users by those discouraged relating their complaints about how things were here. That's very effective, just not at bringing new people here, as we see.

All the changes HF21 brings are percentage changes. How do you achieve qualitative evolution with quantitative changes? All the complaints the one million or so users that were chased off had are being increased. I don't believe anyone expects anything different from what's going to happen as a result of making people less welcome here than they were when one million were chased off.

You don't have to bang your head on a brick wall 21 times to realize it hurts, and how to stop hurting yourself.

24.08.2019 11:48
0

All the changes HF21 brings are percentage changes

Free downvotes is brand new and not a percentage change. Some percentage changes can have a qualitatitive effect once thresholds are reached and it tips the system into a new balance point. We'll have to see to what extent that happens or not.

24.08.2019 18:29
0

While you are correct to point out that quantitative changes can concatenate to create qualitative changes, free is simply less expensive. TBQH the downvote pool isn't free at all, since it comes at the expense of other benefits that would otherwise be paid from the pool, in exactly the same way that free healthcare, college, or any other welfare proposal isn't free.

However, I do believe it will result in qualitative changes. I foresee the development of a market for downvotes, and this will have an extremely negative impact on Steem society, as have all other automated voting mechanisms.

We will indeed see what comes of it.

25.08.2019 17:02
0

TBQH the downvote pool isn't free at all, since it comes at the expense of other benefits that would otherwise be paid from the pool, in exactly the same way that free healthcare, college, or any other welfare proposal isn't free

That is a bad analogy. Free downvotes do not cost or expend any significant resources, unlike healthcare, college, etc.

25.08.2019 20:04
0

The biggest issue I see honestly is the 20 STEEM thing. I get the reason for it, but its the threshold level that is just too extreme. Why 20? can I get a solid rationale for this? Because I can get behind setting it at 5 STEEM, but 20 is insane. You have to attract a lot of whales for that.

24.08.2019 23:55
1

That was the curve the developers were comfortable proposing at this point. It can be updated later, but one thing to keep in mind is that we won't really even know if 20 is the right break even point until after the new system has been in operation for a while. The numbers 16 or 20 come from running the existing votes through the new curve but that is nonsense because people will certainly change voting practices, there will be more (how many more we don't know) downvotes pushing rewards around, etc. So we'll see.

25.08.2019 08:04
0

where else do you write about Steem other than on Steem? Talking about products / platforms is advertising. BTW, I'm seeking people who are also writers on Medium.com for a Steem related project. People can DM me on Discord for details.

23.08.2019 14:02
0

I write on Medium sometimes but prefer Minds.

24.08.2019 02:04
0

are you on Discord? can you DM me and we'll talk?

24.08.2019 14:24
0

I came here because I searched a topic and a Steemit post came up. I see Steem posts regularly on other platforms that discuss topics of interest.

24.08.2019 07:29
0

what other platform? and other than HF21 which was triggered mostly by the press releases that Steemit Inc did .. what topics about Steem are they discussing.

24.08.2019 14:53
0

Various blogs and the chans have cited Steem posts, besides Steemers deliberately promoting Steem on social media such as Facebook, Twitter, and so forth. I recall recently seeing a post from @ausbitbank cited on /pol/, for example.

As a platform intended to resist censorship, Steem has an outsized impact on the wider web, due to people posting here what is censored elsewhere. Also, other than deliberate promotion of Steem earlier mentioned, none of the posts I refer to were about Steem itself. Many of them were regarding topics prone to censorship, and due to my own focus on politics, tended to be politically motivated.

IMHO, Steem posts about Steem are not the best marketing for Steem. It is posts that would be censored on Twitter, Youtube, and Facebook that best advocate Steem and promote censorship resistance that are.

25.08.2019 18:06
0

so what is /pol/?

Posts that are what you called censored on those other sites are often seen as cleaning up a cesspool by some. Thus making their presence here a mixed blessings as it will bring some and turn others off.

a politics tribe .. especially one geared toward those who are unhappy with the other social media would be good to see.

25.08.2019 18:26
0

Every post and comment is an advertisement for Steem.

24.08.2019 07:22
0

excellent!

23.08.2019 02:05
2

I just hope that HF-21 will attract new good stakeholders, because for this time there isn't many good stakeholders who concern about good users in this platform.
Steem for this moment only full with speculation investor, they only take profit and leave after get it. They're only Short player.

Posted using Partiko Android

23.08.2019 02:06
2

Thank you, Tim. As always, you bring a voice of reason and personal responsibility which is the only thing which will move us forward.

23.08.2019 02:07
3

Well stated!

Also don't forget to let everyone know this is NewSteem!

It's alive, active, busy and thriving.

NewSteem It's what we make it.

23.08.2019 02:25
7

I think it'll be great. People have essentially said I'm naive at times because I'm new here, but I see far too much potential, even considering the bad, for something this big to fail in any real way. This is one of the greatest concepts of this decade, I don't see it or us going anywhere any time soon. :) The community here is wonderful too. The good far outweighs the bad from what I've experienced so far! Looking forward to the future!

24.08.2019 00:33
1

I've lost a lot of hope since steemit said the rich will be getting richer and screw the little guys.
Props to them for at least being honest this time, but the people that were here for a few pennies a day are out, and those that were making dollars now get pennies?

I don't think this place thrives only rewarding sycophants of those that already have steem.

Nobody, with their dignity intact, agrees to play by those rules, imo.

23.08.2019 02:27
2

steemit said the rich will be getting richer and screw the little guys

Nobody said that. In fact, everyone is getting poorer at this rate.

What has been said is these are steps which a significant number of Steem stakeholders (and certainly not all whales or even close) believe can start to make a difference in righting the ship. We may all turn out to be wrong for whatever reasons, but the effort is sincere.

Literally no one is trying to get rich or richer by shifting a few percent of token rewards around on an asset depreciating by 90% per year. That's absurd.

23.08.2019 03:22
2

Then how do you explain an exponential sublinear curve?
Didn't we just fork an exponential curve out because it favored the rich too much?
Now we are gonna fork one back in, except that this time the curve punishes the poor for being poor?

How did 20 steem become the cut off and not 3?

What I got from this admission that posts with 20 steem will be getting more, and those getting less than 20 steem will be getting less, is that those that were here for the pennies can fly a kite and those that were here for the couple dollars can now have pennies.
Irregardless of how that impacts what is left of the community.

It is still premature to nail the top on the coffin, atp, downvoting can still ride in to save the day.

. In fact, everyone is getting poorer at this rate.

I'd say that when you tell your workers to like it, or lump it, and decrease wages 40%, what do you expect?

Until we appeal to the everyman, we are treading water in a riptide, imo.

I still contend that the whale experiment with the n2 was as good as it gets.
Instead of making thousands of users happy, maybe prompting them to store value in steem because they counted in the math, the interests of a very few were protected at the cost of mass adoption.

I know the early adopters were told they could use steem as their personal atm and that it was sustainable to remove max rewards, but clearly they were misled.
The sooner we help whomever to get over that misconception, the better, imo.

23.08.2019 04:02
5

exponential sublinear curve

I'm not sure what you mean by that phrase. The curve is superlinear at every point (adding 1% rshares/votes adds >1% share of the pool), however it converges to linear.

The entire process is an exercise in balancing various considerations in a dynamic system, not just looking at shifting a few percent of rewards given an assumption of everything else being static.

The curve itself is in fact reasonably mild and close to linear overall. Payouts below about 16 STEEM (I guess there are different estimates as this is approximate and I can't say that with some different assumptions 20 is definitely wrong) will get somewhat less than linear and those above will get somewhat more than linear but this is a matter of percentages and is not extreme.

The overall effect is actually reasonably close to the n^2 whale experiment that you liked where there is still a degree of superlinearity but it is muted to the point that the largest stakeholders and vote concentrators can't take effectively (nearly) all of the rewards.

23.08.2019 04:11
0

The curve is superlinear at every point (adding 1% rshares/votes adds >1% share of the pool), however it converges to linear.

Ok, so now the curve resides below linear and moves towards it.
That isn't sublinear?

At this point, this is better than nothing.
Maybe it brings balance to a highly contentious debate.

The devil will be in details that won't be readily apparent for some time after the fork.
Does 7 days balance the moving parts of the math, or will it potentially take longer?

23.08.2019 06:06
0

Ok, so now the curve resides below linear and moves towards it. That isn't sublinear?

Not in mathematical terms. It is superlinear because it always grows faster than linear. However, the degree to which it grows faster than linear decreases. Let's not get too caught up in the terminology though.

The devil will be in details that won't be readily apparent for some time after the fork.

Agree

Does 7 days balance the moving parts of the math, or will it potentially take longer?

  1. Maybe. The devs said they adjusted some paramaters so the discontinuity should be small. Let's hope they did a better job than HF19 which took a month or two to rebalance, but we will see.
  2. To the extent that behavior changes, that will likely take longer. I wouldn't make any snap judgements on the state of the ecosystem before a few months.
24.08.2019 02:45
0

Ok, a few months for everybody to adjust.
At what point do we look at fixing the decision to run off ~90% of authors?
Who is going to continue to post when the platform cuts their incentive to do so to zero?
What incentive do the remaining/benefitting authors have to reduce their rewards to attract adoption?
At what point did we stop trying to attract everyman
bloggers?
Should we stop claiming to be a blogging platform for everybody and start letting people know that long haired freaky people need not apply for accounts?

Not in mathematical terms. It is superlinear because it always grows faster than linear.

If rewards never reach linear, only closely approach it, then the rewards that were linear are now less than linear, no?
That superlinearity is now down for steem poor people instead of up for steem rich people.
Equating to bringing back an evil doppleganger of the n2.

That only the authors that get less than 20 steem experience the superlinearity, and that experience is to see their rewards go down, sounds like a curve that favors those that are already established to the detriment of the newbs.
Which sounds like a doubling down of favoring the already favored under the current rules to the loss of everybody else.

How much sp is going to be required to make a solo vote larger than dust on a comment?
That number is going up alot, yes?

I've been very fortunate to have picked up a benefactor, but at 15 steem, my rewards are going down.
Unless the flagging raises what is available from the pool, I see most folks calling it a wrap.
That may take awhile to live down.
Two forks that killed adoption is a tall hurdle to surmount.
I'd suggest that that 20 steem be adjusted lower before most of our authors throw in the towel.

24.08.2019 03:59
1

Running off 90% of the authors (as well as non-author users) is mostly a function of the value declining by 99% and the overall value proposition being weak IMO.

That being said, if hypothetically 90% of the authors did leave, the rest would see their rewards increase by 10x. It is self-correcting in that sense.

That superlinearity is now down for steem poor people instead of up for steem rich people

There is no difference. That is the exact same thing stated two different ways.

That only the authors that get less than 20 steem experience the superlinearity

This is not true. Every single vote has non-linearity (whether we call it super- or sub-linearity). The cutoff point of 16-20 is a rough estimate of where things will be similar in some sense to the status quo, but this depends a lot on how voting behavior may change,

As I noted earlier, the degree of non-linearity is somewhat modest. Even at the very bottom (near zero), the relative value is something like 50%, which is much much less of a non-linearity than existed under n^2, even with the whale experiment. At modestly less than the 16-20 range, say 10, the non-linearity is still there but it is much smaller. I don't know the number but I might guess at say 10%.

Overall I think we will have to see how things work out including the knock-on effects of more downvotes, etc.

24.08.2019 06:36
0

Running off 90% of the authors (as well as non-author users) is mostly a function of the value declining by 99%

If I remember what folks have told me correctly we lose users because they didn't want to play a game that paid the already established handsomely while leaving the newbs in the dust.
That will never go away, nor should it, but the curve is currently too steep.
I think folks will play this game for pennies, but just like in real life they are getting tired of watching the one percent suck up the lion's share of the value.

We can always find new suckers but once they figure out that they get peanuts while the top 10 votes give 30% of the pool to just ten posts they won't stick around, imo.

Care to give me that number?

@statsmonkey gave the top ten votes, but never the top 100.
After the top ten accounts vote their ten votes, how much is left for the other 10,900 posts?
I'm pretty sure that curve is going to have to be flattened, if we care to retain users that can math even a little.

That is the exact same thing stated two different ways.

D'oh.

Touche!

which is much much less of a non-linearity than existed under n^2, even with the whale experiment.

My estimate on how much the math has to change must be off.
If I understand you correctly, this might not be as bad as it sounds.

Solo votes aren't really the point though.

Most of my manual votes are solo votes on comments.
Double isn't so bad, it will be less painful if the price rises.

Voting is supposed to be a consensus process.

Lol, not among the loners it ain't.
Sure your lemmings will lemming, but I think we got too many individualists for the majority of us to be hopping on bandwagons in the longterm.
If the broader community doesn't learn to spread their votes around to the less popular we deserve to lose those we neglect.

If the comment is truly meritorious, we should expect more than one voter to think so.

I bet you've noticed that popular content is really not my purview.
If a post has more than 1stu, I rarely vote on it.
I definetly don't vote posts with more than 2stu.

Solo voting is almost synonymous with milking.

Maybe in the rarified strata, but down where I hang out, comments mostly, it is the norm.
I follow people that I have to watch to make sure their posts aren't rounding down.

Overall I think we will have to see how things work out

Steem on.
Kudos for all the time you've taken to help us understand the coming changes.
Spreading that understanding is building the base that is here to help the newbs learn the game.

24.08.2019 17:24
0

Mostly I think we'll have to wait and see how it plays out. All of the estimates of the curve effect are very rough and depend on how voting changes. The whole purpose of the (EIP portion of the) fork is to change behavior so it's pretty silly to try to extrapolate from the existing vote patterns.

I'd be surprised if further refinements and course corrections weren't needed.

Steem on.

24.08.2019 18:22
1

Many moving parts to steem.

24.08.2019 18:30
1

I feel like this is all a bit backwards. We're basically all trying to figure out what the best way is to give out all the STEEM that's being created rather than trying to figure out why people should want STEEM in the first place.

It seems we all have this assumption that people just want STEEM, which is true, but only because it can be sold for fiat or other cryptos that people want instead. It's just something to be milked and sold for something you actually have a use for. For Steem to succeed there needs to be another reason people want to own STEEM other than to earn more STEEM.

If you look at your list of things HF21 is supposed to do, they're almost all some form of "buying/holding STEEM will allow you to earn more STEEM". If that's the only reason people want STEEM then the price will continue to drop until finally no one cares about earning more STEEM.

I would love to see the focus shift from how the STEEM is distributed to how we can give STEEM value - or rather show the world the value that Steem already provides.

23.08.2019 02:28
49

We're basically all trying to figure out what the best way is to give out all the STEEM that's being created rather than trying to figure out why people should want STEEM in the first place.

Too much focus on the 8% of of the Steem that will come into existence over the next year (inflation), rather than on the 92% of Steem that already exists.

23.08.2019 02:53
2

Not just that. Because that is still looking at the value in terms of money.

There are countless things that people spend money on, because it has more value to them than money.

I did play an mmorph world of tanks where I bought digital tanks, simply because I liked the looks of it or because it gave me a competitive advantage in the game. I did not care one bit how much in-game gold their value was.

We need applications that use Steem power delegation as the form of payment to get access to a certain product or service.

Now that would change the game completely!

23.08.2019 16:47
2

There's an Dapp for that. Just kidding but there should be apps that are developed on Steem, if there aren't already, that has premium features and pay per play and pay per view and all kinds of things like you said perhaps, a real game changer.

24.08.2019 01:51
0

I have long believed that a delegation economy could be a huge selling point for owning STEEM. Imagine if you never had to pay for Kindle Unlimited like services or HBO subscription like fees but rather than subscriptions you just had to delegate 50 SP. It is an interesting form of subscription economy that could be worthwhile.

Here's the problem with that. People are anti-self voting, which means that the businesses are not going to get 100% of the value of your delegation, which means that they need to double the amount of SP they require, which might get to unapproachable levesl at some point.

24.08.2019 23:29
0

Yes yes yes

23.08.2019 05:23
1

Great comment. We need sinks.

Posted using Partiko iOS

23.08.2019 07:08
1

I agree about what Tim has stated on the post.
I also think that the main focus after SMT should be adding value to STEEM and easy onboarding.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us Tim and Matt.

23.08.2019 07:59
1

absolutely agree

I understand where people are coming from, they think making STEEM easy to get will help encourage growth, but imagine building a platform that gives out worthless shitcoins as incentive.

If more useful dapps & games & commerce & overall reasons to actually use the damn STEEM, then that's what we'll become sooner or later.

Let's hope that something in this upcoming HF will slip past us & unknowingly spark a huge demand & use-case for STEEM.

Wishful thinking? ...yeah, I know... 😓

23.08.2019 15:45
0

I think that having social influence on a social platform is a major reason that one might have demand for steem. It's partially a reason I'd like more steem tbh. This is a community filled with real people (mostly) who have real opinions and can give real feedback/assistance. Not only can I share my ideas/thoughts/feelings/etc here, I can potentially get paid for doing so. In addition to being able to get paid, I also have the ability to pay. This means I can contribute not only intellectually, from online, but now also financially in a direct way.

That's just one way you can perceive value for steem too. There are countless ways! :)

I stated this in my other comment, but even just looking at steem like an advertising platform, you're paying to promote your product (Which in some cases may be yourself.) and the potential for others to see it is great when you have enough stake to promote your content decently.

Ex: Say Nike buys steem to promote their products to steem users. They buy 1mil stake. Now they upvote themselves every post, to get themselves onto trending/hot/whatever. Their incentive to buy was to get the exposure with their ads. Now, Adidas wants a piece of the action, they want to be higher up than Nike though. They buy 2 mil steem and begin to self-vote their ads. Going much higher than Nike. Now Nike wants to respond to that, they buy another 3 Mil so they are double what Adidas is. The cycle continues.

This is obviously a far-off example (Possibly a fever daydream, who knows. lol), but that is another way to look at this. There are a lot of very real people on steem and anywhere there is a gathering of people, there is potential to market products. This is also an example where steem has been adopted to a level where Nike and Adidas and the likes, are even concerned about having a spot in the community's space.

Even without that being the climate of things, my point is, the demand behind steem is varying and to each person/company/etc it will have different perceived value. The demand that is presumed by most IS there, it's just most people aren't exactly sure as to why other people would want steem.

Why do you want steem?
What's it's perceived value for you?

Personally, I think for me it starts with exactly what I started with. The ability to share my ideas/thoughts/music taste/experiences/etc with other people and to be able to have more people see it. That is incentive for me to buy more. Then there's things like Steem Monsters and such, that are directly aligned with steem, that give it added value (to me). I don't think steem would even be around today, if massive amounts of people didn't see massive value in it. Some may not be able to exactly explain why they see value in it or where that value comes from, but the point is, they are still here, they are still posting, they are still participating.

We don't always have to know exactly why something has value, to know that it does. :)

24.08.2019 00:24
2

The value of things is an agreement between humans.
Although neuroscience is now used to deceive and make people believe in the value of things.

But many of us enter steemit because of the global crisis in the world because of monetary survival.

There was a time when the biggest steemit traffic was in poor countries like Venezuela. I saw it once online

24.08.2019 01:09
2

Therein lies another great purpose of steem, then. :) The ability for it to lift up those who don't have the best situations in life. I'm glad that it has been able to help in some way, that is the power behind this!

24.08.2019 01:14
1

Also, I am sorry that countries like Venezuela even have to deal with those conditions. Another way steem can be used would be like charities. A way to give back to the people of other countries who need it, but on a more personal and direct level. This could be great for ensuring the people who need help are getting it.

24.08.2019 01:30
1

Also, @soy-venezuelien made another great point. There is the ability to transfer value to anywhere in the world. :) From anywhere else. That ability is incredible as well. Currency becoming digital and able to reach places that other currencies can't or can but are taxed insanely/etc... this may not differ from other currencies, but think about how fast you can transfer steem compared to bitcoin. It's insane to even think they can be compared. I've never had bitcoin reach my wallet instantaneously. Well, not for a long ass time now. ;) Also, there are no fees with steem. If I send 1 steem, you get 1 steem. If I sent you a whole bitcoin, you wouldn't get a whole one after fees. The fees for steem are paid out in much better methods, directly to witnesses from the reward pool. (I think? Still new to steem.) As far as a payment processing system goes, nothing can really compete with steem. I can drop cash into a bank account and it'll still take a couple minutes to go through. Turn that into a check and you're looking at at least half a day for most banks, closer to a whole one, maybe two. None of those issues exist within steem.

Also, why is gold worth what it's worth? Limited Supply. Same concept applies here to steem. There is a limited amount. That's how things are. That means only a certain number of people can hold a certain amount and that's it. This provides scarcity and where there is demand and scarcity, there is value increase.

I'm not sure how anyone who understands basic economics could doubt the future of steem. You've seen where it's been when the market was in ideal conditions. Where do you think it will be when conditions become ideal again? Do you think there's potential to go even further? How many more people are part of steem now compared to then? How many of the old users continue to post? To comment? To vote? I think there are many people doubting the future of steem simply because of the low prices currently.

Would there be as many posts pointing out possible negative outcomes, if steem were currently trading at $1? As opposed to $0.18-0.20?

I believe that for steem to have stayed above 15 cents since I have invested into it, is incredible. What this means to me is that there are enough people buying to counter how many people are selling and keep it fairly stable for a while now. Yes, things are low, but if we have the ability to counter the selling off with buying in a market this down... think about the snapback that will have when the markets all recover. Like a rubber band, we are pulling and tugging as the band stretches to lower lows than have been seen in a while. Then, when resistance gives and the markets recover, we snap back. The more we've pulled on this rubber band, the more potential energy we've collected. Maybe I'm fantasizing again, but looking at the charts, I see steem at the very least popping back up to 60-80 cents. That may not be as good for others as it is for me... but I'm sure it would make everyone feel a lot better for it to recover to that level. I just see higher highs, that's all. :)

Sure, I may not have traded steem prior to recently on any markets, but I believe it has the same potential as any other market, to act as those markets have. This means large recoveries for those who are down and massive profits for those who bought in at the low lows. Keep your hope up folks, it'll get much better. I feel it.

24.08.2019 01:29
0

I agree, visibility is the value of STEEM. This, in my opinion, is why the demonization of bidbot services and self-voting is a huge mistake. Self promotion is the killer app for Steem. Isn't that really the killer application for all social media? So, maybe its unwise for us to be so anti-self promotion.

24.08.2019 23:24
0

"For Steem to succeed there needs to be another reason people want to own STEEM other than to earn more STEEM."

I'm your huckleberry. The rewards on my content are coups, not money. I don't value money highly. However, I do value Steem other than as money, as it is a measure of the regard folks have for me.

That I do value highly.

I concede that this isn't going to change others, however I also reckon many others more highly value other societal matters than money. Steem is so contrived that it adds monetary value to those other metrics, such as factual reporting. Unfortunately, Steem is also so contrived that it enables other folks to degrade more important societal values profitably, such as by voting so as to maximize ROI from curation rewards rather than other benefits of content, such as factual reportage.

In order for this to be sorted and no longer work against itself, the code needs to change. Thus HF21. However HF21, instead of decreasing the financial incentive to cast votes that is contrary to curative purpose, increases it, and further degrades actual curation. Profiteering isn't curation. As a result I expect Steem price, market cap, and user retention to worsen after HF21 is implemented. Many people do not realize they value other things more than money, and are mystified when their financial endeavors do not increase their quality of life. HF21 is going to be an example of that dynamic. Curation is actually what we want. Profiteering, which HF21 will greatly increase incentive to do, is not, and is contrary to capital gains. Capital gains and profiteering are diametrically opposed.

If this is the case, we will have evidence that social media is not all about money for most people, and it will be time to recognize that those other values should be more the focus of financial rewards than profit. This may seem counterintuitive, but it's actually how society works. Money isn't bad, but valuing it more than people is.

We need to put the society first, and the money will come. HF21 is bass ackwards from what we should be doing. If it worsens Steem society as measured in the three metrics I mention, that will reveal what HF22 should do. I have posted mechanisms that will exert the effect I have recommended before, and will not detail them here, but when the time comes, we should discuss them.

Let me know then.

24.08.2019 06:49
2

Money isn't bad, but valuing it more than people is.

Fully agreed. Facebook has billions of users because - despite the fact that behind the scenes it is highly exploitative and probably even evil - it does provide the social features people use. Facebook seems to have found ways to value money more than people but still give people the impression that they value people more than money.

If we create a system that values everything appropriately - there is potential to beat facebook.

25.08.2019 11:45
1

It is impressions that matter more than actual reality to most people, and the demonstration of this is Steem not being more successful than other social media, despite enabling some monetary reward other social media platforms do not.

HF21 not only doesn't acknowledge this fact, it exacerbates the impact of negative impressions, which is why I expect it to be a disaster.

25.08.2019 16:43
1

The situation is much more complicated. Facebook has a huge number of groups, many of which are private. There are viable ways of having privacy and stopping trolls hassling you. Steem doesn't have any of that - so that's a deal breaker immediately for a large percentage of the world.
Beyond that, most people don't produce content that is unusual, so would not have much to gain from being here. The problem is partially Steem, partially the funding here, partially the lack of will of the population in general and partially the massive funding of Facebook et al.
There are, surprisingly to me, actually a fairly high number of people who like censorship and want control to be able to silence people. Communities on Steem will help bridge a big gap here and are absolutely fundamental to Steem's success. They should have been THE top priority all along.

25.08.2019 17:01
1

That's an excellent point. I for one am very concerned.

24.08.2019 11:00
0

Well said!

23.08.2019 02:33
3

I'm looking forward to increased curation, but as a creator; I'm not looking forward to the inequitable decline in reward for my time.

Curation is fast and easy. Taking the time to produce and share content that is too often under rewarded sees many talented authors go elsewhere with a captive audience.

I really hope the quality of engagement improves dramatically.

Posted using Partiko Android

23.08.2019 02:34
1

I think the core point here is that if Steem does not right its course and become more successful, all the "STEEM rewards" in the world are still worth next to nothing. Job #1 in the success of Steem. Who gets what rewards within the system, how much, and for what reason are all a distant second.

23.08.2019 02:58
4

We need to significantly simplify onboarding (not through "light" accounts), ensure consistent contributors of quality, unique content are rewarded for their labours, and at the same time, give people a reason to use / trade / "spend" Steem.

I agree with a "course-righting" move, but fear that many (barely) (be it in Steem, or fiat) rewarded creators that I regularly support may just find it not worth their time.

Those that persevere through this, and remain highly engaged will reap the eventual rewards.

The size of those rewards is yet to be determined.

23.08.2019 03:03
1

So far the biggest problem numerically has not been onboarding, it has been retention. We've onboarded probably close to a million users (over a million accounts, but after subtracting the obviously fraudulent ones, the true number is likely below a million but not hugely below). Yet most of those users are gone, having given up long ago. I've personally created accounts manually for several dozen people to help them get around the clunky registration system, yet only a tiny handful (maybe just one or two) of those people is still around.

There are many challenges to address, which of course has both upside (if they are addressed) and downside (if they are not).

As for what is worth people's time, Steem has lost 99% of its (fiat/purchasing-power) value. That's the main reason why anything would not be worth someones time, why development resources to address usability, feature, and retention issues is a huge obstacle, etc. Getting worked up about relatively small reallocations of that massively shrinking total value is a huge distraction from the challenges we face. IMO.

23.08.2019 03:10
2

Why do people leave the platform entirely?

What can we do to keep them coming "back to the window?"

23.08.2019 03:28
3

Those are great questions and I don't have an easy answer other than to say we haven't yet found a formula that really works. We need to keep iterating.

23.08.2019 04:01
2

I'd like to offer an answer from my own brain...

  1. Creators require some sort of support or "patronage" to make their "art" - the trope of the starving artist exists for a reason. Just like all things, if something doesn't make economic sense (ie: ROI) why would anyone bother doing it?

Further to this, creators, and artists, musicians, writers and like minded individuals will create whether there is an audience or not.

Whether they'll share that work or not depends on a number of reasons. They may have an exclusivity clause with another publisher, venue, or gallery. They don't "own" that content, and the only reason they can "live" is because the big "corp" stands behind them while milking them as the teat of a cow.

The difference between this traditional model and Steem is similar to btc and wealth. With btc you can "be your own bank", and with Steem you can be "you own content".

If, as a "capitalist creator" (if such a thing exists, you'll go where the payoff is greatest)

23.08.2019 04:17
2

And part two (because I forgot the second question and on mobile)...

A real sense that there's a constant stream of new content that engages with that individual - tribes are doing this to some extent, and gets me the feeling of subreddits, and that, in combination with the "free downvotes" coming in HF21 makes me keen to reward the better content by actively downvoting the "unfit" and "bad" content.

I'll be justifying my downvotes with comments, I hope that others will do the same.

Community led moderation(something not necessarily stake weighted but 1 person = 1 vote) is something I'd personally like.

23.08.2019 04:23
3

'iterating' and 'hashing' .... :/ is not words you bring the masses in with im gone but im just here for one last constructive on the main

23.08.2019 09:08
0

"Steem has lost 99%..."

Profiteering destroys capital gains.

HF21 doubles down on profiteering.

24.08.2019 08:16
0

Huh. So the incentive to participate and grow Steem is a distant second to growing Steem.

Makes sense. In some other universe.

24.08.2019 08:14
0

Participating does not in and of itself grow Steem. There are many milkers who are "participating" and doing nothing for growth. What matters more than that is the nature of the participation and how much various forms of participation actually align with growth and value add in practice.

The incentives need to be more precisely and effectively targeted. HF21 is a sincere attempt to at least start do that. I respect your point of view if you disagree that's what it will accomplish, and I don't even necessarily disagree with the prediction but that is the purpose of it.

24.08.2019 08:42
1

I have thought pretty hard about your comment. While I don't disagree that many (perhaps better phrased as much stake) are extracting more than they add, I do disagree that Steem will benefit most from seeking to align users to it's particular goals.

"Participating does not in and of itself grow Steem."

The reason I reckon Steem should not seek to specify which users are most promoted is because I disagree with the quoted statement. Folks that troll, post pics of their breakfast, or stolen memes are actual members of society, and their participation broadens the inclusivity of Steem social media - an existentially important feature of a social media platform intent on mass onboarding.

In fact all participation does grow Steem, although certain extractive participation also shrinks Steem more. Insofar as a particular viewpoint is promoted by design, this will be based on the particular biases of those doing the promoting. On Steem this will very likely be devs and cryptocurrency advocates, and particularly Steem boosters. This is a small subset of society, and such promotion will only seek that subculture, not the masses.

I find the idea of communities responsive to my expectation that the masses will sort per their values and interests. This potentiates the market for Steem to grow to the limit of the ability of communities to represent society, which maximizes the market for Steem best IMHO.

As you have pointed out, sometimes quantity creates quality, and this is true for financial markets and social media platforms alike.

25.08.2019 18:45
0

In fact all participation does grow Steem, although certain extractive participation also shrinks Steem more

I'll just leave that right there. Or maybe amend my statement to be "Participating does not in and of itself grow Steem net net"

25.08.2019 20:02
0

looking forward to see how the changes unfold 😎

23.08.2019 02:49
1

Good post

Posted using Partiko Android

23.08.2019 02:56
0

The disconnect between large stakeholder and the smaller users has been a big problem, both sides trying to milk the system without showing much care about the system, their system. The blame game has also been great, because the system (not perfect) is broken on many sides.
We all depend on eachother, if we don't act in the best interest of STEEM, the platform will have a hard time staying afloat.

Hopefully HF21 will bring a new cultural change for all the reasons you mentioned. I still feel the original authors may take a hit on their rewards (that's why I'm not a fan of the 50/50 split in the EIP); increasing the curation reward doesn't necessarily mean authors will get more curators. That being said, perhaps things will even out eventually when the shit posters are deterred by downvotes, which equates to a better reward pool for the rest of the good authors. Nobody can predict what will happen, at this point it's speculations and wishful thinking. As with previous hardforks, we need to wait and see, then adjust if necessary to close potential loopholes.

I also hope the HF21 transition goes smoothly, from the technical point of view, unlike the disaster of HF20. I'm happy that many scaling issues are being resolved, with more future optimizations on the horizon.

23.08.2019 02:58
6

@drakos I absolutely love your consistency in speaking up on this. Thank you

23.08.2019 14:04
0

"...increasing the curation reward doesn't necessarily mean authors will get more curators."

No, but it means accounts with substantial stake will have less incentive to upvote content based on it's quality, and increase incentive to extract curation rewards, which incentive has produced trending.

"Nobody can predict what will happen."

It's easy to predict. Profiteering decreases capital gains. HF21 will more than double the incentive to profiteer, and this will have a negative impact on Steem price. That's what decreasing capital gains means.

24.08.2019 07:34
0

Thank you Boss for writing a brief, articulate article on the new system in the simplest way possible. After going through many posts related to this there was more Confusion than clarity. Now this post cleared some basic doubts.

Though economy part was not my main aspect while I joined two years back I have to completely agree with the fact that steem had lost its appeal midway. Even I made a post on it. And we need Iittle more proactive approach to make the steem shining again so that everyone will gets benifited at the end.

Thank you, Have a good day

Posted using Partiko Android

23.08.2019 03:02
2

Love the write up! That definitely sums up what will be happening in the coming week where HF will take course. Curation is definitely a very important part to incentify users to write more and better contents here on Steemit as well as other alt platform that utilize Steem blockchain. By having that good chain of incentives, it will get more traction whereby Steemit could make things profitable through activities like ad. In overall, sustainable is the key!

23.08.2019 03:55
1

I really hope everyone does their part. I also believe in the great potential of this platform, but it has to be more friendly, the UI has to be changed and new apps developed.

Please take a look at this proposal I made some months ago.

I think projects like this are the way to make Steem more actractive to no crypto users.

23.08.2019 04:08
1

The SPS that is included in the hardfork will provide a mechanism for people to make proposals and have them funded.

23.08.2019 13:18
0

Awesome.

24.08.2019 02:17
0

Hi @timcliff,

Thank you for being one of few people "in the know" to be communicating about this fork. These is a lot of silence up in big fish land these days.

I have been here for two years posting daily on three blogs. I write minnow tips, freewrite, review dapps and restaurants, post photography and travel and talk about natural weight loss. I have been living off STEEM and STEEM related money since Dec 2017.

I post about 40 times a week and comment/reply 300 times a week between the three blogs. I feel like I am an asset to STEEM. I have a lot of regular voters, auto-voters and all kinds of people (new and old) who tell me my work here helps them.

I hope I will be one of the little people still standing after the fork goes though. At this point, it is not looking good.

I will be attending STEEMFest 4 unless I am dead. I live in Malaysia and so I will be in Bangkok. However, unless I win a conference ticket, I will not be attending the conference itself as I cannot afford the ticket now - much less after the fork.

You ask us to:

dream about what this place should look like

I have already been dreaming about this for the whole two years I have been here. STEEM should be a vibrant place where people of all interests and income levels can succeed. My minnow tips are directed at new people so they can get over the many technical challenges to even be able to post.

You are predicted to be one of the few winners in this new paradigm @dreemsteem projected before she left a couple of months ago, @timcliff.

steem fork losers and winners.PNG

100 fat people does not an vibrant ecosystem make. I am posting as best I can these days, trying not to let terror envelop me, and praying for miracles such as more people voting my posts.

One of the "problems" I fight down here in minnowland is the 95% kill rate. I do not think we need to recruit any more people to come in the door if we cannot even support the few that make it now.

"We need more people posting!" cry the steemers.

"I'm not voting for those know-nothing minnows!" cry the steemers.

So now what?

23.08.2019 04:41
12

I replied to that dreemsteem post with regards to that thought.. In terms of whether or not the “little guy” will do well as a result of all this remains to be seen, but having all of us who are contributing value do well is the goal

23.08.2019 13:27
0

Yes, you were one of few big guys to even look at that post, much less answer. But all who did agreed that the killing off of little fish will happen. I hope they are wrong for the sake of us all.

Hopefully this fork gets us more steemers than the 8000 we have now at any rank (ignoring redfish and deadfish).

arcange number of accounts.PNG

23.08.2019 13:37
3

well @steemitblog put it rather clearly yesterday ... if a user has been earning over 20 Steem on their posts, they will make more .. if they earn less than 20 Steem they will make less. Seems pretty clear if those making over 20 Steem on posts don't go looking and support those making less, than the kill rate will continue.

23.08.2019 14:00
2

Very motivating post! Great!

23.08.2019 04:51
0

Well said, @timcliff. My commitment to Steemit hasn’t wavered at all. Once @mada first explained to me what the site and blockchain once, I had a very literal “You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes.” moment. I took the red pill. My distain for silo media, and the principle alone that I could earn anything at all for my content, was enough to lock me down till the bitter end.

In many ways, I think Steemit is well positioned right now. I hope HF21 solves a lot of these issues. I’m seeing dozens of my creator/illustrator/artist and model friends leave Instagram in hordes. It’s a mass exodus, and they’ll need somewhere to go.

I’m really excited about the DAO proposal platform. I have some very outside the box ideas and spent last week making wild pitches for projects to @lovejoy and @roadscape. The day that proposal submission form is live, I’m going to be bombarding the community with new ideas!

Thanks for always fighting the good fight, @timcliff!

23.08.2019 04:53
1

"Hardfork 20 alone is not going to get us there,"
typo, correct
Also, pass me the crack.

23.08.2019 04:54
2

Thanks :)

23.08.2019 13:34
0

Great article! While I still hold on to my thoughts that the effect of the economic changes will be unpredictable, I agree it's a good change overall

Posted using Partiko Android

23.08.2019 05:14
7

The huge thing that you and all the other folks proclaiming that this solves problems are missing is:

Steem is a social media site. Most interactions are people interacting with their community. The communities that thrive draw new people in. Not rich investors usually, but friends and family. You're all jumping the gun on this "Steem is broken" line and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The new curve is going to incentivize piling on to popular content rather than discovering and welcoming new users. If my vote can give someone I like $0.20 or someone I don't know yet $0.10, I'm going to vote for the former. And will I ever offer an encouraging upvote on comments??? Never. Because the comment isn't going to get other votes.

You will change the behavior of most users. You will change it so that we no longer behave like regular people.

I joined just before we got linear rewards. I was near quitting feeling like my posts would never be worth anything. Then it switched. I didn't know why at the time, but suddenly they were worth more. They were proportionately as valuable as other posts I saw around. Still less, but not exponentially less. It made this thing seem possible.

I wish the people in power had the imagination to understand what Steem is like for minnows and what it will be like in hf21. And not everyone is the same. But for a lot of users who have given a lot to building and bringing their communities to the platform, it will be a gut punch.

Posted using Partiko Android

23.08.2019 05:20
2

Steem is a social media site. Most interactions are people interacting with their community. The communities that thrive draw new people in. Not rich investors usually, but friends and family.

This is precisely where Steem is failing. Very few people want to expose their Steem wallet to the world while having it tied to one's walking world identity. Do you accurately report your Steem income to the IRS? If not, would you want hundreds of people in the walking world to know that @improv is you? Only one person you have pissed off could cause you significant harm by reporting your Steem income to the IRS if you don't accurately report and pay earned income tax on your rewards. And everybody's wallet and their post earnings are displayed by every front end.

If everyone were able to carefully track their Steem earnings and enough of the liquid portion of their income to pay their taxes, that would add a great deal of selling pressure on STEEM.

If we want millions of new users, they will have to be entirely cut off from the reward pool. Billions of people happily use social media without ever earning a single cent. Light accounts (mere wallet addresses) are key. Those users will not come here to earn money but to spend it on playing games like Splinterlands. Blogging for crypto will be remain a mere footnote in Steem's history. Those who mined STEEM were the first wave of early adopters. Those who earned it by creating and curating content were the second wave of early adopters. The masses will not earn anything here. They will be the consumers who will spend money here. There is no other way the economy will be able to work in the first place.

23.08.2019 07:08
0

Well that's certainly one vision for Steem. It's not an inspiring one, seeing as traditional social media already serves that purpose. Why would anyone switch to Steem in your vision of that future?

Also also, "people won't want money because then they have to pay taxes" seems illogical at best. In the world where Steem incomes are prominent and reliable, a service to take care of your Steem taxes for a fee seems like a profitable business idea. Do people avoid buying stocks and bonds because they have to pay taxes on profits?

23.08.2019 15:05
1

Well that's certainly one vision for Steem. It's not an inspiring one, seeing as traditional social media already serves that purpose. Why would anyone switch to Steem in your vision of that future?

People certainly are not switching to Steem now. On the other hand, billions of people have joined traditional social media.

But social media is by no means the only possible use case of Steem. Steem can also store JSON objects (text), which is made use of by many games such as Splinterlands. Blockchains allow for the true ownership of digital assets such as Splinterlands cards. The state of the game is recorded on Steem, which means that even if the creators of the went AWOL and shut down the front end, anyone could develop a replacement and the players could continue the game. That is impossible on a traditional centralized platform.


Also also, "people won't want money because then they have to pay taxes" seems illogical at best. In the world where Steem incomes are prominent and reliable, a service to take care of your Steem taxes for a fee seems like a profitable business idea. Do people avoid buying stocks and bonds because they have to pay taxes on profit?

We are extremely far from Steem incomes being prominent and reliable. Most people here are anonymous or pseudonymous and are most likely not paying taxes on their income, which makes it understandable that they're not "doxxing" themselves en masse out there. There are very few people on here willing to go and get people to join Steem in the walking world, which organic growth is all about.

You do realize that if everyone actually paid tax on their earned Steem income, that would increase the selling pressure tremendously.

Also, it is completely impossible to pay any kind of significant rewards to, say, hundreds of millions of Steemians in any case. It's completely clear that even with the low price of Steem, most of the content here is not worth the fiat value of the rewards. STEEM is a middle-tier altcoin whose valuation is largely speculative at this stage.

23.08.2019 18:36
0

No. Most people that come here aren't leaving because of potential tax liabilities. It's a non issue. You equate blogging with mining, ignoring that Steem was actually mined into existence.

Lite accounts are crap. No one wants them. People want to participate in social interactions, and the FAANGs prove that social media is the most profitable business model in existence today.

Unless Steem enables rewards to inure to folks that socially interact here, it's gonna continue to die. You advocate a gaming platform. You aren't on one. This is Steem. The gaming platform you seek is called Steam.

Lrn 2 difference.

24.08.2019 08:07
0

No. Most people that come here aren't leaving because of potential tax liabilities.

I've never said people are leaving because of potential tax liabilities. What I've said is that most people are not inviting friends and family to join partly because they don't want people who know their real identities to know they're earning on Steem, some very significant amounts, and that this is partly because most of them are not paying any tax on their Steem income.

It's a non issue.

It most certainly is not a non issue.

You equate blogging with mining, ignoring that Steem was actually mined into existence.

What are you talking about? Income gained by blogging on Steem is earned income. The issue of mining has nothing whatsoever to do with this. And despite some STEEM having been premined, most STEEM that will exist will be generated as content rewards.

Lite accounts are crap. No one wants them. People want to participate in social interactions, and the FAANGs prove that social media is the most profitable business model in existence today.

Using a lite account doesn't mean one cannot participate in social interactions on Steem. That is entirely doable using guest accounts provided and maintained by an app. Logging into the app could be done using one's Facebook account, an email address or whatever. That is the most convenient way for the average person to use any app. The average person doesn't give a flying fuck about decentralization and I suspect will not be bothered with creating an account for themselves using AnonSteem or any such service or even to maintain their own keys.

Unless Steem enables rewards to inure to folks that socially interact here, it's gonna continue to die.

Steem has failed to even begin mass onboarding. I've found the opportunity to earn to be highly suspicious in the minds of a lot of people I've told about Steem. And I'm not the only one having observed that. For me, it's a complete no-brainer to use it to earn. But most people do not care about that at all. In a way, that will make things massively easier for Steem as an ecosystem because it implies that the masses can be onboarded without any need for them to earn anything, just consume and pay for shit. They will eventually give our investment the kind of value we're hoping it to have one day.

You advocate a gaming platform. You aren't on one. This is Steem. The gaming platform you seek is called Steam.

(Steam does not provide players true ownership of their digital assets because it's centralized.)

App developers do not need your permission to develop precisely the kind of apps they see fit. Splinterlands operates completely outside the reward system. It has nothing to do with creating content. It is arguably the healthiest and most thriving application in the entire ecosystem.

24.08.2019 12:09
0

Steem isn't decentralized. A couple dozen people own the accounts that possess the vast majority of Steem - all of which was originally mined by the ninjaminers. The rewards being issued are a fraction of that Steem, and most of them inure to the original ninjaminers because they use stake weighting to extract them into the wallets of their thousands of accounts.

The votes for witnesses are stake weighted, and therefore the witnesses serve at the behest of the ninjaminers. Splinterlands is great for folks that want to play games. Folks that want to play games are a fraction of the folks that want to engage on social media. You can restrict your vision of Steem however you want, but your claims and plans basically are in denial of provable facts.

24.08.2019 12:58
0


Steem isn't decentralized. A couple dozen people own the accounts that possess the vast majority of Steem - all of which was originally mined by the ninjaminers. The rewards being issued are a fraction of that Steem, and most of them inure to the original ninjaminers because they use stake weighting to extract them into the wallets of their thousands of accounts.

I was originally talking about Steem rewards being taxable as earned income, in which context what you're saying above is completely irrelevant.


Splinterlands is great for folks that want to play games. Folks that want to play games are a fraction of the folks that want to engage on social media. You can restrict your vision of Steem however you want,


Despite paying its users to use it failing to attract large crowds of users. Steem is still paying its users something rather than nothing unlike every mainstream social media platform in existence.

Why is the Steem user base not growing organically and fast at that if the rewards are such an important attraction? (Surprisingly, they're not. Mainstream people can't be bothered with learning to use Steem and earn some money while blogging. Very few Steemians have been able to get people to join and STAY on Steem for any length of time. Either the rewards are too good to be true and stories of them are met with extreme scepticism or they're measured in pennies and nobody gives a fuck. Not even piss poor Venezuelan students who you'd think be interested in grabbing whatever money coming their way are clamoring to join Steem. These facts really boggle the mind.)


but your claims and plans basically are in denial of provable facts.

You can repeat that to yourself if it makes you feel better.

24.08.2019 15:45
0

My point in response to your claim that aversion to taxation was a primary reason people weren't Steemers was that it was irrelevant, and the overwhelming majority of Steem was not available to most users on which to be taxed. You claimed that was not true, and now you claim that despite it being true it is irrelevant. You may not like the facts, but bobbing and weaving around them will not make your statements true.

"Why is the Steem user base not growing organically and fast at that if the rewards are such an important attraction?"

I address this issue in detail elsewhere. To skim: financial rewards are NOT a primary reason people interact socially, people are extremely sensitive to fairness. Indeed, vertebrates are extremely sensitive to fairness, meaning it isn't just some meme issue. Dogs will fight to the death over tidbits if they are provided intentionally unfairly.

Profiteering is destructive of business endeavors, and the ninjaminers were great coders, not experienced investors that were well informed regarding mechanisms potentiating capital gains, the means used to drive investment since prehistory. ROI is not capital gains.

You can ignore these facts to your heart's content. That won't make them go away, and when you do not acknowledge facts your statements will remain false.

25.08.2019 17:23
0


My point in response to your claim that aversion to taxation was a primary reason people weren't Steemers was that it was irrelevant,

That wasn't my claim. Why is this so difficult?

My claim was that Steem has difficult time growing organically because too many Steemians (existing ones) prefer not to try and get friends and family on board or to even tell anyone in the walking world they're Steemians because they've been earning STEEM while not paying taxes on it (among other reasons that tie into Steem being monetized). Not that people who are not Steemians are not joining because earning Steem would involve a liability to pay taxes.


and the overwhelming majority of Steem was not available to most users on which to be taxed.

What's relevant here is that whatever is earned by a Steemian is earned and thus taxable. The ninja-mining issue is not relevant at all.


"Why is the Steem user base not growing organically and fast at that if the rewards are such an important attraction?"

I address this issue in detail elsewhere. To skim: financial rewards are NOT a primary reason people interact socially, and people are extremely sensitive to fairness.

Now, I definitely agree that people interact socially primarily for reasons other than financial rewards. And yes, people are extremely sensitive to fairness.

But the question was about organic growth. Let's remind ourselves what organic growth means. It means people getting people they know in real life to join by talking to them in real life. If Steemians are not telling people they know in real life about Steem - for whatever reason - then Steem cannot grow organically. I believe most Steemians are not trying to onboard people they know and who know their real life identity.

What you say about people's sensitivity to fairness is a good point in its own right and may well contribute to Steem's difficulty to grow organically because some Steemians who have quit Steem because they have perceived it to be unfair a system may in some dissuade non-Steemians from becoming Steemians. But I think so few Steemians trying to onboard people they know personally is a much bigger factor because those non-Steemians who get to hear what an unfair platform Steem is would otherwise have very likely never have heard of it in the first place.

It is interesting that both of our arguments come down to the money being an impediment to organic growth.

25.08.2019 20:28
0

The new curve is not a switch back to the old curve. I don’t know what else I can say other than I have the exact same concerns as you do, and I agree that they are valid concerns. Despite that however, I still feel very strongly that we need these changes.

23.08.2019 13:37
0

Can we not make the two other EIP changes without the curve? Are top witnesses prepared to roll back the changes efficiently if what we think will probably happen seems to be happening? In talking to witnesses, it seems like everyone is especially concerned about the curve. That seems valid. Why isn't anybody leading from the front on changing that component? It's not too late.

23.08.2019 14:39
1

The time to decide against particular portions of the package has past. We don’t get to pick and choose parts at this point, we either accept the changes as a package or we don’t.

24.08.2019 00:14
0

I mean, I'd say everyone should reject the package as a whole and then implement a package without the curve. You've all been aware of this problem the whole time, but it seems like it's been too late to change anything since it was announced. Someone has to be willing to do the right thing even when there's tremendous pressure to go along with what was decided by others.

24.08.2019 02:20
2

There was a lot of discussion about this prior to the hardfork being developed. There is consensus among the witnesses to proceed forward. You frame it as the “right” vs. “wrong” thing, but it is not that simple. I do not think that what we are doing is wrong, otherwise I would not be voting for it. The hardfork is the best deal we could come up with to try and fix our issues that could be developed in a reasonable amount of time and be accepted by a super majority of witnesses.

24.08.2019 03:30
0

Fair enough.

You know how many of us are frustrated, though, right? There was to be community feedback on the proposed changes. Before we had a chance to point out the flaws and suggest fixes, it was a done deal. All we can do now is oppose it. And since the changes do especially benefit those with large stakes and we aren't far enough into this for the stake to have significantly decentralized, it's not something that even a bunch of dolphins can effectively oppose, let alone minnows.

It will be harder than ever to decentralize, as the funds will flow to those who can get whale votes even more, which has always proved to be whales themselves.

We all hope I'm wrong at this point, but if hopes were horses, we'd be crushed in a stampede.

24.08.2019 05:35
2

I do. There was a lot of feedback taken into account before consensus was reached. There was a lot of back and forth, push and pull. In my view, this really was the best possible deal that we could all reach. I am excited and hopeful that this HF will be a really big (positive) deal and that six months from now Steem will be a very different (better) place. I'm of course worried too, for all the same reasons that you are. The results of all this are going to be impossible to predict, so at this point all we can do is hope for the best and do what we can on an individual level to turn this into the place we all want it to be.

24.08.2019 16:10
0

Which witnesses were pushing for the curve to be like what you landed on?

I'd love to see some whales commit to alleviating the reduction.

I proposed this to markymark and he seemed receptive, but I haven't seen anything since. I'll pitch it to you as well.

Create a whitelist of non-abusive users.

Delegate to a bot which:
Checks posts by users on the whitelist for vote values below the linearity threshold
Calculates what the Steem payout will be in EIP and compare it to what the same rshares would have been pre 21.
Upvote the difference so it pays out in Steem the same way it would have.

If this is really going to be good for everyone, the bot shouldn't be very necessary. But if it's terrible for most good users, it's absolutely necessary to keep this hf from punishing good behavior.

I'm especially worried about comments.

24.08.2019 17:50
1

If anyone wants to put in the work to do this, they can use the SPS to request funding.

24.08.2019 18:22
0

@holger80! You should totally do this.

24.08.2019 18:51
1

Sps projects get voted for by stake weighting as well, though right? So what are the chances something that benefits minnows at the expense of whales would ever be approved if we can't even stop the excesses of EIP?

It seems small users are up the proverbial creek insofar as control over their destinies is concerned.

24.08.2019 20:37
2

Does it have to be framed as a zero sum game? Believe it or not, there are stakeholders here who see value in rewarding users who are contributing value.

24.08.2019 21:46
0

It doesn't have to be, but it's seemed more like a negative sum game so far. I think I'm losing your good will, but it should be re-emphasized. These changes make it even easier to extract value for the people who have the most to gain by the rise of steem. And they do so at the expense of making it harder to extract value by the many who are not yet heavily invested.

There are lots of good people on this platform, absolutely. You're probably one of them. But just because you're a good person doesn't mean you know what's best or understand what it's like to feel pleased about a post worth 3 Steem. That's the reality for most good users. The abuses targeted by the linear curve get closer to sixteen steem, sure, but I don't know a single person personally who gets or gives 16 Steem votes to comments.

All these good people? It's why so many people are committed to Steem. But since the get go, I've seen people warp their behavior to fit the interests of the people with power and money.

I'm not trying to be mean or pessimistic. There are just a lot of people here already who are the target users. The earliest and/or wealthiest adopters are not representative of "the masses" but they all seem to think they know what will attract "the masses".

The promise of Steem is great, but, for all that witnesses may have gone back and forth before reaching consensus, there was not nearly enough communication.

This was all over the place, but each point is relevant.

I hope it won't feel too disappointing that we can no longer express our appreciation for comments without sacrificing value. I hope all the downvotes on abuses will lift the 8b rshares posts to 16 Steem.

It just seems unlikely, and there doesn't seem to be a plan for if it doesn't work.

Just speaking for myself, the platform doesn't seem broken the way witnesses talk about it. I get there are abuses, but they seem like they require attention, not EIP.

Again, I wish we could have had real conversations with users on chain.

24.08.2019 22:26
1

But just because you're a good person doesn't mean you know what's best or understand what it's like to feel pleased about a post worth 3 Steem. That's the reality for most good users.

If you want to scroll back to the beginning of my posts (3 years ago) you will realize the incorretness of this statement. I started out just like every other minnow and worked my ass off posting and building a following. My "graveyard" of posts that I spent hours on and made nothing is likely 10 times as big as most of the people complaining about not earning enough on posts.

Just speaking for myself, the platform doesn't seem broken the way witnesses talk about it. I get there are abuses, but they seem like they require attention, not EIP.

Every single "regular user" I have recruited to the platform has left because it sucked. Every single "investor" that I have tried to get to invest has not put any money into the platform. My experiences are not isolated. Sure, there are a rare few who stick around or invest money - but the platform is not going to scale in it's current form.

Again, I wish we could have had real conversations with users on chain.

There have been thousands of conversations between witnesses and regular users prior to approving this. We have likely heard every single argument that you are going to make against it, and responded somewhere. Part of the problem is that this is a decentralized platform, and these conversations are happening all over the place - comments sections of the hundreds of posts about the hardfork, podcast interviews, discord, steem.chat, etc. You seem to think that because we are moving forward that we just haven't heard the arguments against it, and we are ignorantly running off a cliff. It is really more that we have heard all the arguments, listened to all of them, and this is what we decided.

25.08.2019 16:47
0

If everyone you've brought to the platform has left, I suggest you check out @freewritehouse. We bring new users and retain them, and many buy steem. I have tips about how that's accomplished if you're interested. It does have to do with consistent interaction, community building, and niche interests.

25.08.2019 18:59
1

There are definitely niche groups here that are doing well. I didn't mean to imply that nobody sticks around.

26.08.2019 00:09
0

Also I haven't really gotten a good response to "rewarding comments will become a thing of the past"

It seems important to me. Am I wrong?

25.08.2019 19:05
1

I don't know.

Whether you/we like it or not, Steem is a stake based system. The largest stakeholders are going to have the most influence over what gets rewarded. Historically we have not done a good job at getting the large stakeholders (who's votes matter most) to pay attention to "the little guy".

One of the main goals of HF21 is to get the more larger stakeholders actively participating in curation. Whether they decide to curate posts or comments or both remains to be seen. I know in the past, @blocktrades has done a lot of comment curating.

26.08.2019 00:12
0

Not to be snarky, but one could rephrase this to say

Historically, the largest stakeholders have demonstrated their unwillingness to do what's best for the platform, so we've decided to give them more power.

26.08.2019 02:07
0

The corollary is also true:

Those who have focused more on doing what's best for the platform and less on ROI therefore have smaller stakes, so we're taking power away from them.

26.08.2019 02:13
1

You can frame it however you want. At the end of the day, there are very few (if any) minnows on the platform right now earning enough rewards to make it worth their time to contribute. You can fight to keep the status quo - which already sucks for minnows, or you can get behind a change that has the potential to make things better.

26.08.2019 03:34
1

Having minnowhood three years ago and having it today are very different experiences. I was a minnow starting out 2 years ago, and the culture of steem was just different. It's changed. And I even recognize in myself an impulse to identify with the people who are in my steem station. But we shouldn't forget that new users who become old users are what we need and we need to hear their voices.

Anyways. I do hope you have those numbers about how much reward pool will theoretically be freed up if the abuses stop. That's the only thing that I can imagine would explain why after listening to all these arguments you've made the decision you have. I just haven't seen data.

25.08.2019 19:32
1

I have not forgotten. I want more large stakeholders to curate content, which means voting on more content from minnows.

I am voting based on my subjective opinion of what I feel is right for the platform.

26.08.2019 00:14
1

By the way, I consider myself a stakeholder.

24.08.2019 22:31
0

Here's a major point that I'd like to make.

As a stakeholder, I find I disagree with the largest stakeholders about what kind of content brings value to the platform. Under 20, fair enough: I upvote what I like with the stake I purchased, you upvote what you like, and we're both rewarding content relative to the amount we spent on our stake.

Under the new system, I can't offer proportionate value. I like the content of small communities, niche interests, and people who have interesting conversations via comments.

24.08.2019 22:52
2

Under the new system, I can't offer proportionate value. I like the content of small communities, niche interests, and people who have interesting conversations via comments.

If these things are really what drive value to Steem (not saying they are not) then stakeholders are going to need to put their money where there mouth is and support it.

If the "large" stakeholders (the people with hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in the platform) are not doing the "right" thing (whatever is needed to make Steem succeed) - then unfortunately we are pretty much fucked no matter what code changes we make. This is a stake based system, and we need the large stakeholders acting in the best interest of the platform.

If the existing large stakeholders are not going to step up and do it, then we need other people to come along and invest (literally) millions of dollars to buy up the stake and take over.

Two of the main objectives of this hardfork are:

  • Create better incentives for the existing large stakeholders to act in the best interests of the platform
  • Make it more appealing for new large stakeholders to come along and buy STEEM to participate in the economy in a way that adds value (curating)
25.08.2019 16:52
0

The thing is, value comes from lots of different places for different people. The value of the platform itself is the promise that for a one time investment, I can support the content I like forever. This hardfork feels like a betrayal of that promise.

All this abuse that the hardfork is supposed to solve, what are we defining as the abuse and how much of the reward pool is really going to each part? I've been asking this question, but in spite of the drastic solution, no one seems to be know hard numbers.

If this frees up 50% of the reward pool by making abusers cease, great, even though my 0.2 steem vote will be only 0.1... it'll actually be 0.2 still. Great. But no one has suggested that's the case. Do you have the numbers on how much of the reward pool is going to abusers?

25.08.2019 18:51
0

It is fairly subjective.

26.08.2019 00:08
0

Another point.

It doesn't really matter, as far as the value of Steem goes, if the large stakeholders value what I value.

Steem isn't a destination because of the content. Of course not. We live in a world of plenty of content everywhere. What's valuable about Steem is that I get to decide what matters to me.

If large stakeholders like it or not, great, but it's the power to reward that attracts me (and that I think is attractive about the platform).

And the changing economics make me lose confidence (and regret investing).

Really wish we could have had SPS without EIP.

25.08.2019 19:43
0

"Are top witnesses prepared to roll back the changes efficiently if what we think will probably happen seems to be happening?"

No. They're not going to do that. Exchanges don't like HFs.

I don't think what exchanges like or don't like is going to matter much when none of them will exchange Steem after it crashes.

24.08.2019 08:11
0

I've been saying for ages that we need good content to get rewarded better. There has been too much of a dash for cash. Investors would look at trending and see junk. I'm interested to see if that changes after next week. The economics of buying votes will change, but will it go away? The sellers will find other ways to keep going.

I believe in the potential of Steem, but it's really up to us all where it goes.

23.08.2019 05:53
1

A nice write up.

The new system should also encourage more flagging of large abusers by smaller accounts...

Given that it will be much less worthwhile to post mediocre content (no one's going to be earning $5 for posting about their daily meal anymore) then they'll be less posting of that sort - so less or no opp for retaliation if they do flag larger accounts.

And of course flagging doesn't effect curation returns.

I think flagging's going to be key to this new system.working.

Posted using Partiko Android

23.08.2019 05:55
1

How did you make you avatar? Love it.

24.08.2019 02:16
0

at the risk of breaking my radio-silence and losing my distance :

that ponzi-thing where the masses need to do the work for the company wont work

the company needs to attract money by providing actual potential added value to other business and
people with money need to create entrypoints , i have no idea who the business/mass-psychologist for steemit inc is but they clearly have strange ideas on "the masses"
there, i lost my distance again gods dam ... why is it broken ? because who the hell has heard of people getting PAID to run nodes and a company dumping its own coin as primary source of income AND then expecting to in a absolutely not ponzi way everyone just bringafriend with some money to infuse the system while every time anyone buys a 50 some whale thinks its time to sell off ...

THATS WHATS BROKEN pardon my french caps , delusions on how the world worksemit is not sticking with me
if someone can come up with a way to prevent the top dumpers from damaging or even better, a way to move from hyper-inflated to capped or pegged (i dont know how, okay, thats why im saying) i would get a lot more confident
no no no, really, if you would see some family or something getting high on their own supply what would you say ?
"good job" ?

23.08.2019 06:04
3

seems to be some assumptions you've made that alter the picture. You see Steemit Inc as the 'owner' of the platform. They are the development firm which brought it into existence, yes. They are also the major blockchain developer at this time although the platform has many more developers building the ecosystem.

The platform is owned collectively by the community with the witnesses forming the governance. It's up to all of us to make it work or not.

I don't really care if the masses come over from Facebook. There are hundreds of small social media sites thriving across the net. We need to grow while remembering ... the titan that FB is was not built in 3 years.

Steady growth and thriving is far more important than whether the masses from FB arrive.

23.08.2019 14:13
0

"You see Steemit Inc as the 'owner' of the platform."

Let's talk about the ninjamine. The stake in Steem each account has determines their ownership in the platform. Stinc is the majority owner of the stake as a result of the ninjamine. Almost all the Steem in existence remains owned by the ninjaminers.

It's they that elect the witnesses, and they that have ground the price of Steem into dust.

It ain't you and me.

24.08.2019 08:00
0

Steemit Inc is one of the majority owners and at first the others who did ninjamining were the dominant stake. However, Steemit Inc has not used their stake to elect witnesses for sometime now and the stake is getting dispersed across more than those who ninjamined.

We can stay fixated on past actions or we can push to keep moving forward.

24.08.2019 14:56
0

Some ninjaminers have thousands of accounts, so it is impossible to ascertain what has happened to that stake, or how it is being used.

"We can stay fixated on past actions or we can push to keep moving forward."

'Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'

I appreciate the necessity to move forward, but alas, doubling down on the problems revealed in history is not moving forward. There are means of discouraging profiteering and encouraging capital gains, but they are not implemented in HF21. HF21 greatly increases incentive for profiteering, and directly discourages capital gains.

Capital gains FTW. Having the data on the blockchain should make it trivial to grasp the harm profiteering has effected, and facilitate encouraging capital gains. I hope we do undertake that process before Steem becomes impossible to maintain.

Time will tell.

25.08.2019 17:56
0

hmm @shadowspub, in a bit of a hurry and way behind or replies but i fear you might have mis-read. I keep stating everywhere that steemit is all too often mistaken for STEEM, meaning it is not, i know how it works. But on the subject of de-centralization : it is NOT de-centralized, steemit does dictate and the top 20 has every incentive to follow as steemit is the biggest dumper/producer of STEEM. So i'm sorry if you misunderstood i was actually saying its a misconception that's adopted far and wide that steemit inc = steem while it is not.
As for your small sites , i think i can answer that : they live by external revenue, not by dumping their own resources into dollars to pay the bills so if they suffer from inflation its the dollar itself they suffer from, while here things work quite differently, if inflation isnt tackled then by all mathematics in the world eventually you will run out of people to bring a friend and some money to fill the gaps.
Don't wanna argue ... there's plenty to say, BTC has 9000+ nodes and no one gets paid to run one, there IS no BTC inc and it has ZERO utility.
And as for all of us, i feel its a great misconception to think the main chunk or 'the masses' are willing to do so. What is the reason your average working class hero would want to PAY to post puppies or his newborn sisters latest kid ? And if they don't what is the reason for the middle classes to spend money on 'content' and if they don't what is the reason for advertisers and investors to put up a billion ? And when that billion gets put up how long will it take before its sold off ?
I wish i had the solution but imo part of it is stopping inflation (which will be really hard to translate towards THIS platform/DAPP run by steemit.inc)

but maybe not impossible, we're already not getting SBD yet no one seems to stop and its clearly not pegged at USD $1 at the moment.

If the platform is owned by the community then i sure as hell have heard a lot of community-people who think its a REAL bad idea after HF21 to spend money on a post ...
and then some ... i gtg sorry, and sorry if you mis-understood that, its probably something that could use some awareness raising : the fact that steemit inc just runs a dapp and happens to have half of the people who developed the blockchain it runs on .. where Larrimer seems to have left at a very convenient time actually , which is another topic im not getting into lol.
External revenue is what keeps the others going, not their own coin dumped in the ocean

08.09.2019 15:33
0

Curation is now more profitable, so there is more reason to buy STEEM and power up - @timcliff

Why don't you start buying? You are powering down :-).

23.08.2019 06:44
11

I have a large amount of STEEM that I am holding onto in the hopes that we head way up. I am also selling some to pay the bills (which doesn’t go far these days unfortunately). I am very much vested in STEEM going up.

23.08.2019 13:44
0

Diversify your portfolio. Invest in many things. Don't keep all your eggs in one basket.

24.08.2019 01:44
0

Hi @timcliff I’d like to thank you for a really measured and balanced post about HF21 when many other seem to have been weighted one way or the other.

I’m a small account and have blogged my way to that status with what I hope has been reasonable content. I’ve enjoyed it, and still do, however have the same fears and concerns others do. Your post has gone some way toward allaying those fears and for that I also thank you.

I look forward to the future here, to continued content creation by myself and others and I look forward to HF21 making a positive change. Most of my steem has been earned by content creation and (manual) curation however I’ve added some purchased with hard-hearted fiat so I’m eager and optimistic on the future. I believe we can do this.

Anyway, I just wanted to say this.

Enjoy your weekend.

Posted using Partiko iOS

23.08.2019 06:55
2

Just the other day I was looking at your blog in the hope to find an article. And here it comes. You said some important things and I like to add some more thoughts.

To me, Steemit is a big experiment. Decentralization is not something that people are used to living. If there is no central unit that pushes things forward, but a house is placed on the square, where interested people and passers-by can simply build their doors, create applications on their own initiative, then exactly what happened at Steemit happens: things become independent; and not always for the best. There is abuse everywhere and in every system. If the system is big enough, it will always endure those who use it for primarily selfish purposes. But Steemit has never been big enough for that. Unlike shoplifting or welfare, where firstly the theft is priced in and secondly strict control is exercised, freedom on Steemit has been one that is probably quite unique.

The drama of abuse and opinions reflects exactly what is going on out there in politics and business. But the fact that we are now on a par with those whom we have so far liked to insult (and continue to do so) is, if we want to see it from the humorous side, a lesson that many of us can use. How easy it is to scold all those who hold the rudder in their hands and how hard it is to hold it yourself and not know who to ask or what to do with this freedom.

If you compare Steemit to open source, you realize that, for example, participating in the further development of Linux or other projects of this kind, didn't hold out the prospect of any direct financial reward, was merely a satisfaction for those who had the ability and desire to continue working on something voluntarily and see what the baby would become.

Here at Steemit, the focus is and has been far too much on profit. No matter if user or stakeholder: if you don't invest with interest and fun, if you see it as experimental or play money, you will never be happy here. Wanting to build one's existence and satisfaction on something as new as crypto currency in conjunction with blogging, on something as unfinished as this, without wanting to give the opportunity to grow, only produces disappointed minds.

Wikipedia is a great example. No matter how you judge it, it's a phenomenon and a role model of how something can evolve without people getting heated. Or youtube: Rarely seen anything that has provided such an extremely long period of time with a completely free platform for consumption and production. As long as it lasted (without ads), everyone was enthusiastic and a lot, really a lot of people, benefited from it and will continue to do so. Behind one as well as the other are patience, a long-term intention and vision and above all people who have enough time and money, a really long breath. From the really impressive ROI's that have been here so far: Who else is here who has the same breath and hasn't been frustrated or bored?

This social experiment, in which all users participated, could so far be considered a failure. The decentralization and freedom that so many people are calling for is suddenly a commodity that is handled clumsily. What do you do with it? Who tells you where to go? How do you behave when you are a small light in the offline world and suddenly a whale here?

I don't condemn that.

Decentralization is something completely new and different and it can take years or decades for people to get used to the fact that they have to get along without hierarchy. There are only interest groups that can work together, they are far from communities; that's how I see it. I find this word very misleading and emotionally charged. What takes place here predominantly without a central guidance, is a loose union of interest groups or hobbyists.

The best currency is rising user numbers, not rising profits. For the outside world, Steemit is like a kind of village behind a wall. It behaves like a club and somehow doesn't keep the accesses open enough and, as I said, without a central unit that causes a sensation, the whole thing will rather splash on. The new, the exciting, such as in the beginner times of youtube or facebook can't offer it or has tried to offer it by putting making money first. But as always, when money plays the first violin, something is missing.

How I see it: Why all the drama? Why not just going on and seeing Steemit as a long term opportunity and exchanging solutions in some different ways, like consensual voting method.

Curators who see content that is not adding value will downvote it, because it is taking rewards away from everybody else.

What a lousy task. I wouldn't want to give myself up for that. To vote down content that doesn't interest me, that contradicts the demands of my sense of quality: what kind of work is that? But maybe it's needed, I really don't know. Punishment, in my view, never works very well.

I will go on blogging.

23.08.2019 07:11
6

Thank you for restoring hope for this project!

23.08.2019 07:23
0

I have noticed that some Stakeholders are creating new identities on, I think, Github and Steempeak. Will they be able to make more curation payments for themselves by upvoting their own posts with these new identities?

23.08.2019 07:43
1

The amount someone earns is 100% based on the stake behind the votes, not the number of accounts voting.

23.08.2019 13:49
1

Thank you for info.

23.08.2019 14:55
0

Yes, they will. Upvoting their own accounts will deliver to them both curation rewards, from the upvoting account, and author rewards. The ratios to each will change, but they will capture all the rewards if they well stake their voting accounts.

They're fitting to game curation based on curation rules that benefit early, large votes best. Stake weighting.

24.08.2019 08:21
1

Thanks for confirming what I thought. I suspected that was why they are creating so many accounts even paying for them. Ah well, if you can afford it, make it work for you, I suppose. The accounts are usually operated by voting bots so it's easy money.

24.08.2019 08:30
0

Don't be misled by confirmation bias. The information @timcliff gave you is correct and the information @valued-customer gave you is not correct.

24.08.2019 10:03
1

Okay, thank you for your info.

24.08.2019 10:12
0

So a big fat upvote right after the timer runs out doesn't capture all the curation rewards? I'm sure all the curators and guilds using that principle to gain financial rewards will be surprised to hear it.

I'm not much of a curator, and I could be wrong I suppose. I just upvote what I want to encourage. Doesn't pay much, and it won't after HF21, but that's because real curation isn't undertaken for money.

24.08.2019 11:56
0

Voting after the timer only works if there are no/few votes already during the timer. That's generally not the case for well-known content, so if you do have the chance to get in the first vote after the timer, this is lesser-known content for which curation should be more rewarded, but where you are also likely taking a chance on whether the content will get significantly more votes anyway. If it doesn't then you get some curation share from your own vote but it isn't much, relatively speaking.

24.08.2019 18:26
0

"There is nothing wrong with some people curating for profit..."

I am sure you will not be surprised that I disagree. There are very good reasons society effects rules intended to prevent selling votes, and other valuable aspects of society.

25.08.2019 17:05
0

The types of votes you are talking about (political and governance type votes) are quite different where there are generally only a small number of choices. When searching a sea of content, whether that is Steemit or Facebook or google, the task requires significant resources, which means it is always going to be paid in some manner. Reddit is somewhat of a counterexample, where most first-level curation is done by uncompensated users, but even there the front page is curated (and the entire site is moderated) which means Reddit (the company) is paying people to vote.

25.08.2019 22:48
0

Reddit, Facebook, Youtube, Insta, etc... I have no idea how many up and down votes are cast without financial compensation, but the number of votes cast for financial reasons on social media is certainly miniscule in comparison.

There is demonstrably no need to financially compensate votes on social media, and it is insuperable to claim doing so creates incentive to vote content according to it's merits. The reverse is provably true.

Museum curators aren't paid for curating particular additions to collections, but for creating valuable collections. Where adding particular items to collections are individually compensated, it is obvious that corrupt influences degrade collections. The first example that comes to mind is the Payola scandal.

History is the best teacher.

26.08.2019 18:05
0

On most of those sites (reddit being a partial exception) curation is not done by user votes. It is done by the companies themselves, partially via algorithms and partially via paid human curators/moderators) all of whom are most assuredly doing it for financial compensation.

A decentralized blockchain is fundamentally different. It is users playing he role normally performed by the companyy/operator in performing the curation. At scale, regardless of who is doing it and whether they are a company or not, this is a task which requires rsources.
Once you reecognize that (some) Steem users are performing the same function as paid company employees at centralized social sites the idea of paying users for their work is not at all perverse or surprising, but it does require a bit of a broader perspective to get ones head around..

26.08.2019 21:01
0

I am a fan of the Steem engine tokens with 50/50 and 60/40 split as I have always done manual curation and as an author, I find people are more likely to vote on my posts as they will be better rewarded. I think this change will improve the Steemit experience. Your post also clearly explains the changes in layman’s terms so is helpful, thanks. I would like to invest but the disparity between the higher bitcoin price and low steemit price is a deterrent. In the uk, you cannot exchange fiat directly for Steem and if this were to change and the interest rate was not extortionate, I would invest. My main motivation these days however are the spin offs, Steem engine (and initially actifit until the recent changes which made it less rewarding for the newer members) 🙏🏽

Posted using Partiko iOS

23.08.2019 07:54
1

I hope so.

24.08.2019 02:15
0

SE tokens were not ninjamined. The massive stake differential on Steem is not present on SE tokens.

24.08.2019 07:40
0

It is too hard for new users to get noticed.
The platform is too confusing.
Signups are too difficult to onboard at scale.
There is a lack of funding (outside of Steemit, Inc.) to pay for community development and marketing.
Users who contribute a lot of value are not sufficiently rewarded.
Users who don't contribute a lot of value find ways to milk the system.
There is not enough of an incentive to buy and hold STEEM.

At least we found a way for us to fix 1,2,3,4 and 5 without the need for any forks :)

23.08.2019 08:29
2

Fingers crossed!!!

Posted using Partiko iOS

27.08.2019 13:30
0

@timcliff,
Not this one I am looking at the next fork! I think that's the major one in STEEM history!
$trdo

Cheers~

23.08.2019 08:58
5

Congratulations @theguruasia, you are successfuly trended the post that shared by @timcliff!
@timcliff got 6 TRDO & @theguruasia got 4 TRDO!

"Call TRDO, Your Comment Worth Something!"

To view or trade TRDO go to steem-engine.com
Token distribution bot developed by @ali-h

23.08.2019 08:58
0

Just joined in yesterday. Hope it’ll be a good one :)

23.08.2019 08:59
1

something constructive before i pick up my vow of silence and hope to keep it for a week
Screenshot_2019-08-23_11-05-58.png

blame, blame, always blame, not the part where i dont see "reward discarded" as i dont feel anyone should but steemit itself (but i also feel no one should get paid to run a node ... i'm a weird mofo after all)

See that feed ? that's not blame, that's hard reality on "bills have to be paid" but also the biggest dump because there's no alternate source of income
You got here, a huge pack of IT-genius who could easily provide service, PAID, to third party (there was also the option when the world was young to PATENT a system that's more than unique enough i like to think)

BRIBING ... steemit never votes ?

bribing zynga to bring farmville ... panem et circenses (but i guess that's morally not acceptable in the "the right way to do things" you need to bring a friend with money into the hyperinflation and his 50 euros will do the trick)

sarcasticat at your service, its the world of finance, no compassion in the marketplace , i really dont believe the "ask not what your country can do for you" approach is gonna bear much fruit and yet i really hope i will be proven wrong on that part

there's more than zynga, my little script to calculate a votes worth seems to be broken , probably the json output changed but it doesnt matter and last time i checked they were at 32 million, now at 29 .... q.e.d. and resting that case b/c it really feels like its way too much on my head daily for getting zero cents a year out of it with about 90% of all steem i have paid for out of my own pockets ...

gud then, a month of silence but the posts (if anyone checks my thing , that stripmining i do here for four cents a post is basically a demo of what you can do with a €150 pc with a celeron cpu, steemchain and condenser, comes down to something that i been running since 6 months before the first announcements of SMT's, runs steem-equivalent at a level of 25 digits deep (but only uses 8) and is intended to be playcoin for a game im trying to develop) @tyrnannoght , https://tyrnannoght.alleycat.be with an e.t.a. of nAn, around 2050 maybe as its just me, but at least im trying (to get something that gets me actual money)

kudos ...

23.08.2019 09:16
1

great initiative!

23.08.2019 11:42
1

Well said @timcliff.

What a concise and clear explanation.......thank you.

All the best.

Cheers!

23.08.2019 13:51
4

Hey @timcliff, could you explain to me how you see the new 50/50 reward split is going to encourage whales to manually curate?

Dies the increase in curation rewards also benefit bidbots? Why wouldn't one just keep their steem going towards that, a lot easier to make profits no?

Posted using Partiko Android

23.08.2019 15:41
1

It is going to depend on whether the new economic model results in a culture change.

24.08.2019 00:17
0

That sounds... not very promising haha

I don't see how a change in code will result in a change of whale's minds.

Profit is profit, people will seek it above all else, always.

Would love to be proven wrong about this though 🙃

24.08.2019 04:45
1

Yes, the increase in curation rewards will inure to bidbots, and they will simply pass them on to delegators to maintain their profitability.

Whales will just make more Steem, although they'll make less money. The ninjaminers didn't invest to get their stake, and seem to have little grasp of how to encourage capital gains. Profiteering and capital gains are diametrically opposed, and considering your market and marketing department a drain on your ROI is why user retention is horrible.

HF21 exacerbates all the things that chase off new users, reduces the price of Steem, and worst of all will be the downvote pool, because substantial stakeholders will use it to flag rewards back to the pool, where they can extract ~90% of it. More actually, after HF21 more than halves author rewards.

24.08.2019 07:48
0

So I take it your excited for the 27th eh?

Lol, jk. See, all of what you just said seems, to me at least, be the most likely outcome of this upcoming HF.

That's why it's pretty upsetting to hear people who are on the otherside, promising #newsteem & better mechanics, to simply respond to these criticisms with "Don't worry, it'll be ok because people are going to just magically change."

Like, no. Code can't do that to people. Or, at the very least, this code won't.

24.08.2019 09:12
0

LOL This is why I have an exwife.

24.08.2019 12:00
1

lol 😂

24.08.2019 17:00
1

This is the best post I have read here in a long time.
resteemed to my 4700 Followers.

23.08.2019 16:10
5

If you learn to curate smart as the little guy. It would way easy to grow compared to making posts and get them seen.

Curation and commenting is way more fun than posting for me.
So I am looking forward to HF21

23.08.2019 16:11
1

I hope you are right. I am a buyer of Steem here.

23.08.2019 19:09
1

Hi @timcliff!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 7.189 which ranks you at #75 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has not changed in the last three days.

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 147 contributions, your post is ranked at #1. Congratulations!

Evaluation of your UA score:
  • Your follower network is great!
  • The readers appreciate your great work!
  • Great user engagement! You rock!

Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server

23.08.2019 20:10
0

No other blockchain out there will be able to match steem for the next 3 years. So we have 3 years to make steem great again and later on build a bridge with other social network. Steem will be the glue. Steem on!

23.08.2019 20:56
1

True.

24.08.2019 03:06
0

Hardfork 21 = bad?
I know there is a lot of negativity surrounding this hardfork. There are a lot of people who are concerned about how this will affect the "little guy" (average user) and how it opens up more potential avenues for abuse.

I suspect a lot of people will think that because I am voting in support of the hardfork that I am not listening to these concerns, but I assure you - it is quite the opposite. I am very concerned about those things as well. Despite those concerns, I am still strongly in favor of the hardfork.

In my view, hardfork 21 is exactly what we need in order for all Steemians ("little guy" included) to succeed.

I have seen a vast majority of this "negativity" (I think some of it is just concern for what negative consequences could come for the little people, not so much being negative as "what negative could be about to happen to us.") and I get a lot of people's concern, I have concerns of my own, even.

The thing is, I see it as double-edged. Sure, there's drawbacks like possible abuse of free downvoting and other avenues. I also see the little guys getting double the curation they were getting though. Curation that is, essentially, un-removable. (Unless people are willing to downvote whole posts just to take away your personal rewards...)

People can worry about whatever or have hope for whatever, but what I'm glad to be seeing the most, is people talking about it. That is the first step to any form of growth moving forward. Discussion.

This is by no means an exhaustive list, but some of the top issues include:

  • It is too hard for new users to get noticed.
  • The platform is too confusing.
  • Signups are too difficult to onboard at scale.
  • There is a lack of funding (outside of Steemit, Inc.) to pay for community development and marketing.
  • Users who contribute a lot of value are not sufficiently rewarded.
  • Users who don't contribute a lot of value find ways to milk the system.
  • There is not enough of an incentive to buy and hold STEEM.

I think a VERY simple solution to the first issue of new users being hard to notice, could have been solved extremely easily a long time ago by any front-end.

They simply need to have a tab like they do for the trending/hot/new, that says "Up and Coming" or something like that. It could say any number of things and it really wouldn't matter that much, but it would only display posts that had so far earned less than idk, say, 20-40 cents? A single dollar? It would stop displaying posts that reached above that and it would display them in a fashion like the hot page would. It would show based on how quickly it got to that amount, and slower earning posts would show up lower on the list, but it would still show posts at a max of less than a dollar at most, meaning that the top of the list will have only earned that much, but the quality may be just as good as some of the highest paying content. This will give visibility to that low range and not only give new exposure to smaller stakeholders/users, but it will also show what posts are rising the fastest from nothing. You see a good post there one minute, then it's gone, you look at the hot/trending, there she blows! The good post is not lost, but since it was noticed enough to earn above that cap for the page, it now transitioned to where it is getting the exposure it needs.

I feel that that alone would allow people to organize content based on how much it's being paid, and see the posts that are doing well, but not earning much and allow the larger users who wish to reward that content an easy way to find said content.

The platform being confusing is really just a matter of looks. I prefer Steempeak to Steemit and I don't feel that steempeak is confusing whatsoever, steemit, however, different story. I can understand that aspect. Some new people may not find Dapps that appeal to them for a while and may not know they even exist. I guess I just was one of the luckier ones.

Can't really speak on signups, as it didn't seem that hard for me to get started, it just took a little while which seemed like nbd. I'm not privy to the issues that go along with that so I have no valid opinion. :P

As far as funding goes, I think that really depends on the people here. How hard are the people working to bring new users/investors in? Generally there need to be solid ideas built behind things before people will want to invest. You can't just try to bring investors in on the hopes and dreams of creating something beautiful one day that is worth all of that value, there needs to be enough product already built for them to have real interest. Even the average person might need a good bit of convincing to even join in to an idea. As much as you say the thing about blame, people's finances being crippled by markets and inflation and just life in general, does matter, exponentially. That is yet another reason why we have not seen any real improvement in the crypto markets for a long time now. The world economy is going in the dumper as a whole and it's due to bankers and politicians. We may see some bright patches here and there, but from here on out, with the exception of crypto gaining more traction, we are headed for a very low, low. Across the board. This does directly affect things like this and as much as I hate to place blame on anything when there are a multitude of factors involved, this is one that I feel comfortable blaming for a very large portion of all of it. If we see economies start to thrive and rise again, we will see a massive influx of new members coming to the community. If not only for the fact that new people like me are willing to promote and spread the word personally. Especially when the markets are coming back and the steem I purchased at 16-20 cents is worth a dollar or more again. :) I will be all too happy to onboard as best I can. Make money (possibly, lol.) to be social? I don't see that being hard to market. Lot of people around me still don't even know about crypto, yet use instagram, youtube, and facebook. Lots of opportunity.

As far as not being rewarded properly, I can see that. I can also see the side where you might need to spend a little bit at first, to get people's attention. If you aren't willing to invest in yourself, why should other people? I guess that's just how I was built though. Does that mean you will forever have to spend? No. Not at all. If your content is good quality and you spend a little bit here and there to get exposure, you could very well find people that stick you on their voting list. It's not insanely hard and I've had some luck picking up bigger stakeholders as voters for me, by what I would assume is just posting content they like and boosting it up a little bit so they can see it. If I had not promoted my content some, I may not have ever gotten any support. Could've been random chance, idk. :)

I've done some research and seen what you're talking about as far as milking with no quality. That's pretty fucked. :/

The incentive to buy/sell steem is in the ability to influence the content. I'm sure that for some that doesn't make sense or seems pointless... but look at steem like a marketing tool alone. Having power to promote your stuff to the top and such, is essentially advertising. In this example, you're paying for advertising. Advertising that can potentially earn you rewards the same way you might get customers for your product. (Although you might actually be selling a product here, so you actually are getting customers. :) )

Also, just to cover the broad topic of abuse. Here's my stance:

Yes, there will be abusers, anywhere, but here's the thing... If they continue to sell off what they get by abusing, to people who aren't abusing, eventually there will be less and less and less for them to sell. More and more of that stake goes into decent people's wallets over time (If they keep buying.) Meaning that as times goes on and instead of powering up and staking those rewards, the abuser is selling them, they are not growing in power at the same rate the decent users are. This means that it is only a matter of time and a matter of purchase power, before these abusers start to not be able to abuse at all. When the community has continued to buy what they're dumping off, and the rate they're dumping is far higher than the rate they're growing, then that abuser will be sorted out by the people eventually. If they are powering it up, then that means that they are not selling, so either way, we win in the long run by continuing to purchase steem and power up our stakes. It may take quite a while for this to occur (Idk how much power abusers have/how much abusers earn), but it's just like the law of large numbers in gambling. Eventually, it will happen. This also takes into account the idea that the community will actively fight this abuse when and where they see it. Another reason free downvotes are a positive thing, in my opinion. This now allows good users who may not flag otherwise, the ability to freely combat that bullshit post they saw that was being boosted through some abusive mechanism.

TL;DR:

Well, then you better learn to be patient and read! ;) :P
Jk! If you care to know what was said though... really... you can take the time to read it. :) Not sue how to best "TLDR" this thing. lol

24.08.2019 00:12
1

use shorter paragraphs .. I'd read more of it ... too hard on my eyes.

25.08.2019 18:17
0

Is buying steem going to be easier?

24.08.2019 00:24
1

Not as a result of the hardfork.

24.08.2019 01:49
0

Encouragement:

Possibly the most important factor, like you said, is encouraging more curation by giving them 50% rewards. To some extent, curation can be more decentralized in that different can upvote a post.
#

Centralized Users

A single account may now only get 50% in rewards, in HF21, which is less than 75%, which we had before.

Mathematical Magic

Yet, ironically, mathematically, curation is like a funnel. The single user is a central point. Instead of increase the smaller end of the funnel (posting rewards), theoretically, expanding the other end of the funnel (curation) has the potential towards expansion. I have my fingers crossed for this new hard fork.ope this second pool, the dowg system, helps a

24.08.2019 01:32
1

How are content creators emplyers? We are just as much employees as curators. We work hours at a time and put content on the platform. We don't deserve to be taken for granted and hf21 is basically saying Steemit doesn't care about us. It won't reward the little guy just because we make less than 2p Steem per post.

24.08.2019 11:06
0

I argued against the 50/50 change, but in all honesty, 80% curator 20% content producer would possibly even work better than 50/50. I know it sounds bad but it would sort of be turning curator into a true profession. At 20/80 I could genuinely imagine average joes buying $5000 worth of STEEM and setting up shop as a professional content hunter, almost like being a professional editor, but working for yourself rather than at a publisher. This could turn curators into the much needed gatekeepers for the indie publishing revolution.

Indie publishing is awesome, but it does have a weakness, which is that now we have an over-abundance of content. Now it is difficult for you to find quality content. So, Steem could have the potential for "employing" thousands of indie editors/curators that would support the indie content producer revolution with curation.

Think about it another way, what's a more profitable post? A post that gets 75% of $5 or 20% of $50? The percentage that content producers get is not as important as the amount of authors to curators. I would say that right now we have a massive imbalance in author to curator ratio, with there being more authors than curators. That's a problem, because we needs thousands or hundreds of thousands of curators to each author in order for authors to truly benefit on Steem. That's why I don't think it is problematic for curators to get a larger percentage.

25.08.2019 00:16
0

Exactly. Thus why I call content creators like employers in the sense that bosses do better with more staff in some cases at least. It's a funnel. It's a sprinkler.

25.08.2019 10:31
0

Change is always hard but so many great Steemians have jumped ship and I just can’t see how much of these new rules will help encourage existing Steemians to stay and get new people joining.
Time will tell I guess. This place used to have a special vibe but flag wars, bid bots and scammers have certainly tarnished this. I can’t see how the changes will address these issues in a positive way.
@timcliff I do certainly respect your opinions and if you think it’ll overall be a good move then let’s roll the dice and see what comes up. Hopefully not crap.

24.08.2019 01:42
2

This post has been included in the latest edition of The Steem News - a compilation of the key news stories on the Steem blockchain.

24.08.2019 01:58
0

Ninjaminers hoarding more tokens will not grow Steem.

You had a choice: support HF21, or no longer be a witness.

I think you made the wrong choice.

24.08.2019 08:27
1

Ninjaminers hoarding more tokens will not grow Steem.

To be technical on wording, there was really only one ninja-miner: Steemit, Inc. Everyone else who mined tokens early were simply early adopters.

We can't keep looking at the way things have been and extrapolate out how they will be in the future under the new changes. Those of us who have been working on this (for literally years now) are hoping that as a result of these changes - six months from now we are looking at a totally new Steem. Whether we can pull it off remains to be seen, but I am hopeful.

You had a choice: support HF21, or no longer be a witness.

That is 100% false. If I was not in support of HF21, I likely could have stopped it. It is a choice between HF21 and the status quo though, and I am strongly in favor of the opportunity that HF21 gives us over the state we are currently in.

I think you made the wrong choice.

Fair enough. It is quite possible I did. The results of this HF are impossible to predict, but I chose to vote for the path that I felt gave us all the best opportunity to see the platform succeed in the long run.

24.08.2019 16:15
1

What I want to know from the witnesses is where this 20 STEEM number came from. Can I get a detailed explanation why it had to be 20 and not 5... 20 is really huge!

25.08.2019 00:21
1

The number was calculated by running the current voting data though the new rewards curve and comparing the results.

The problem with this discussion is that it assumes no changes in behavior among the voters. If there is no change in behavior, then things will be worse for users who are not earning much. The whole point of the hardfork though is to drive a change in behavior.

25.08.2019 16:55
0

I hope it does change behavior. I feel like Steem has drawn too many content producers compared to curators. I support the 50/50 change, I would have supported 20/80, I support the 20 STEEM threshold thing, though I wish it was 5, but I get the idea and agree. My main concern is the free downvotes. I get that a lot of people believe in downvotes, but I feel that too many people into the idea of being able to downvote stuff are not paying attention to how strongly it offends the downvoted person.

It literally enrages people, and I believe it creates a toxic environment. I believe in positive encouragement and techniques that favor quality over quantity, but I want a happy environment on Steem, not a battle. I want quality to win not because crap gets downvoted but because people just love the quality content producers. Youtube doesn't prevent you from putting complete garbage on their platform, but it simply won't earn anything because nobody values it. That is what Steem should do.

In my view we just need to encourage quality and not go after the crap. That is why I get the value of the 20 threshold (though I wish it as 5). It makes it extremely difficult for poor quality content to reward itself and rewards viral content. I'm down for that, I get the value there. But I do fear that the free downvotes are going to either lead us down a path of constant flag wars or overly authoritarian whales scaring the shit out of people. I really wish we could utilize positivity rather than negativity. Imagine if Steemcleaners and flagrewards just hunted undervalued content. I think people would feel so much better about their experience on Steem.

25.08.2019 23:03
1

too many people into the idea of being able to downvote stuff are not paying attention to how strongly it offends the downvoted person.

Sorry, but users need to get accustom to the fact that there are downvotes. Downvotes are a necessary evil in order for stakeholders to decide BASED ON CONSENSUS what gets rewarded. Rewards are not rewards until all stakeholders have agreed through voting (or lack of voting) and the seven day payout is complete.

I know there are some stakeholders who take it a step too far and cross the line into an area where it becomes abusive. I am not trying to argue in favor of that, but in a decentralized system - we are not going to be able to control that type of thing completely.

If it becomes a big enough problem, then community members can propose solutions and get them funded via the SPS.

Youtube doesn't prevent you from putting complete garbage on their platform, but it simply won't earn anything because nobody values it. That is what Steem should do.

That's basically what downvotes do.

26.08.2019 00:18
2

Sorry, but users need to get accustom to the fact that there are downvotes.

The primary stakers of Steem do get to make the decisions for how it will go. You are right that it is the right of the majority stake to stand firm for downvotes. What I am arguing is that it is a foolish path that will likely lead to the death of Steem.

Steem will ultimately have to survive in a world of competitive social platforms offering token rewards for engagement. On Publish0x, Cent, Honest.Cash there are no hostile buttons, just shared gains between content producer and content consumer. Karma on EOS elected to have no downvote feature as well, as I have been told (never used it).

If people find Steem to be a hostile environment they may grow uncomfortable with it and move to places with more positive atmospheres.

Another key problem....

...with downvotes is that it effectively de-monetizes contentious topics like politics. That is not good for open discussion about important topics that might be complex and have a variety of groups with differing views.

If people learn that they can't monetize their content on Steem because people of opposing ideologies collectively downvote their content they will likely need to go elsewhere. That would be bad for Steem, because it can limit it to only shallow topics like travel blogs and cooking.

There are better ways...

I believe strongly in the quality content reaching the top, but there are positive ways and negative ways of getting that done. I've been working on creating a decentralized community called the HoboDAO to boost quality content in a positive way.

People have to submit their work to the HoboDAO and cover a submission fee for entering the daily contest. Only the top 5 for each day is going to win, everybody else that submitted their work loses.

I'm sure it doesn't feel good to lose a contest, but I know that people are more able to accept not winning a top 5 spot when 50 people were competing with each other. They might just keep trying until they succeed. But downvoting on the other hand hurts feelings to the point that they could grow tired of using Steem altogether.

That's basically what downvotes do.

What happens on Youtube is not the same thing as what downvotes do. The people that make no money make nothing because nobody is paying attention to them. Downvoting someone is specifically targeting someone.

The most similar thing to what Youtube does is if Steem had no downvotes and everyone just upvoted quality content and ignored the garbage content. The 20 Steem threshold thing even kind of makes downvotes pointless, because now people will realize that in order to profit their content needs to go viral. I like this feature, to me, its the best part of HF21, albeit a more difficult threshold than I would have picked.

Look, I respect the right for witnesses/steemit inc. to go down this downvoting path. You guys have the most to win or lose from that decision, so by all means, do what you think you need to do. I'm just pointing out that I think the downvote feature is the iceberg for this Titanic. She let go of Jack, don't let the users let go of Steem. ;)

26.08.2019 22:39
1

"If I was not in support of HF21, I likely could have stopped it."

I appreciate your measured response to quite inflammatory comment. I don't think you are right that you could have stopped HF21, but I certainly could be wrong. However, your integrity is showing here, in the face of my apparent hostility, so I will refrain from blaming you for what I believe will prove to be disastrous results. Clearly we simply disagree on certain matters, and you are utterly forthright in stating your positions AFAICT.

The coming market for flags will be disheartening to you I expect. It was not something that would have been revealed by testing, since those intent on profiting thereby would not have revealed their intentions during testing. Due to financial incentives, I expect shitflags to result from that market, just as shitposts have from bidbots. It's not as if we don't have evidence for shitflags and professional flaggers on Steem already, and enabling the cost of such flags to be offshored to the pool will greatly encourage that business model.

I have proposed mechanisms that will obviate profiteering, and Steem market cap has dropped ~50 places since I did. In the event you eventually realize that profiteering and capital gains are not compatible and are faced with taking action to promote capital gains as necessary to prevent further harm to Steem, please do consider those ideas. It was a while ago, and I know digging is a time sink, so upon inquiry I will be happy to either repost or reiterate them.

25.08.2019 17:43
1

Appreciate your insight into imminent change Tim, let us hope this is the right way to tackle an ongoing problem.

Many invest both time and money into steem, those who arrived to rape the concept hopefully have moved on, with interested investors remaining.

Number of members is not always a criteria, commitment in assisting those who do put in the effort, growing a strong community will attract new arrivals when knowing what is expected.

Keep sharing steem content to other platforms, that in itself is advertising.

24.08.2019 08:43
1

I’m curious how things will work out. I think the major positive thing here is that we’re actually seeing things getting done unlike the past.

24.08.2019 09:36
5

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Word cloud of this post and all comments.
Brought to you by @resources and https://worditout.com/

24.08.2019 09:53
2

People definitely need to rise up!
!giphy rise+up 👆

25.08.2019 09:24
0



// You can support giphy by using one of your witness votes on untersatz! //

25.08.2019 09:24
0

I will monitor the situation, but to know that content I share, for which I put weeks of work into, will be getting less, is very disheartening. Less rewards and then even less for earning less that 20 steem per post. I have invested over 2 years, am a delegator, contribute multiple times a week, have grown organicalky. I feel like Steemit is trying to push us away. I just can't see the positive. I want to be proven wrong, but I just can't see how hf21 will help minnows at all.

Posted using Partiko Android

24.08.2019 10:59
1

Do you want more users who have the ability to add significant rewards to your content to be actively seeking out good content to vote for? One of the goals is to make active curation profitable again, to the point that stakeholders opt for this rather than simply putting their stake towards passive income options like bid bots. Whether we can actually accomplish a culture change remains to be seen - but that is the goal.

24.08.2019 16:18
0

Well when you put it that way. I still don't like it, but I also want to be proven wrong. I have never used bots, so I'm not sure how those work, but if the change does make curators find good content and those of us who contribute all the time get more upvotes, then that compensates for the less rewards.

I also have a lot of concerns regarding the flagging downvote change. I worry there will be abuse and bullies.

I am willing to give the change a chance, like at any fork, because if I leave, it impacts the communities I'm a part of (gotta think of the family sometimes too) but if abuse and bullying happens and becomes a new norm, then I'm out. I won't be able go support a platform that encourages that kind of behaviour.

24.08.2019 21:12
1

I share your concerns. Let’s hope it works out for the best :)

24.08.2019 21:48
1

I really hope you're right! I want to be positive, but it's difficult because I'm well below the cut-off for where the changes will hurt - at least to begin with.

I've been saying for awhile that it's hard to be both a quality content producer and a good curator! Perhaps as the curators materialize, good content will benefit. I've also been saying for awhile that Steem needs a way to pull in content consumers - we can't do both! This is the chance to make it work - I hope it will.

Thanks for your take on this.

24.08.2019 13:14
2

I usually go by what my conscience says and something tells me that Steem is going to attain new heights. I may be wrong but if I am not, then we can sure see some happy faces of all those who invested heavily in Steem and believe in the power of what it can do.

As for good content and rewards and all, I think that a person writes because he/she wants to write for the sake of it and not just the rewards only. The incentive for curating good content will make people search for good work and make them share it as well. So, good content will certainly get more rewarded as you point out.
All the best and I believe in you guys. We are in good hands, so why worry?

24.08.2019 14:24
1

24.08.2019 16:05
1

It will definitely be interesting to see what happens with this hardfork @timcliff, and I think you hit the nail on the head with the statement that we need a culture change in order for this all to work out.

I definitely hope HF.21 takes us in the right direction.

For me (and maybe I am just totally out in left field with this) one of the "elephants in the room" that never gets talked about is a general lack of definition of what "this" actually IS. And — more specifically — the great emphasis often placed on the primary sales pitch to the external world (about Steem and all the communities) of "make money."

Truthfully? Most of us are here to make money, but there's a semantic disconnect in using that particular approach.

Why?

To MOST people (and ESPECIALLY those "trolling" for sources of "money for nothing") the idea of "making money" suggest that I DO something, get paid, and then walk away and buy a cup of coffee, or a pizza.

Why is this a problem? Because the implication is that we're all about current income (which drains the system and puts downward pressure on the price of Steem) rather than investing and gaining from longer term appreciation.

Hence, there is a HUGE difference between "create content and get paid" and "create content and become a stakeholder."

THAT, right there, surely must also be part of the cultural change we need to strive for, here...

I do share a lot of your optimism and hope for this community, but something has to give, in terms of how we approach telling others (externally) about what we have here!

=^..^=

24.08.2019 18:25
1

Upvote 100% and resteem! Good luck to us all!

Posted using Partiko Android

25.08.2019 09:03
0

Such an interestign read and I am waiting to see how the Hard Fork affects the platform, it could be a good thing rat least I hope so it will most likely reduce what I earn on posts but if it does lead to an increase inthe value of Steem and the interest for people to get on board with Steem in the long run it will be a good think

25.08.2019 10:04
1

The 20 Steem threshold frightens me a bit to be honest. Most of my posts don’t obtain that and I’ve been here a year and a half, gone to Steemfest...networked...and gave out over $5000 worth of comic books to strangers at the event, work my ass off here, actively recruit new users in my community, and invested several thousand dollars of my hard earned money to purchase tasty Steem to power up and reward others. For the most part outside of a handful of folks, nobody gives a shit about what I post...and that’s fine.

I’m not entitled to anyone’s support or anything like that, but I’ll tell you this right now...a few people I’ve dragged on that have have been posting and interacting with some regularity are real nervous. These are the people who always fall below that threshold. I’ve been talking this place up and working my tail off to slowly and organically build my community, and pretty much everyone is going to be beaten down a bit more by this aspect. That’s a bit demoralizing and a slap in the face to new users. Just my opinion and I hope I’m wrong about this, but it is just THAT much harder for newer smaller users to build towards success here. That’s a shitty thing as it was already tough to do prior to Tuesday.

I’m hopeful that we as a community can work it all out and in time prosper...but there definitely is a bias towards the larger accounts with this specific move. I don’t see how anyone can honestly say otherwise with a straight face...

Can someone smarter than I am explain to me how this specific number was decided upon and the reasoning behind it?

25.08.2019 12:00
1

The problem with this discussion is that it assumes no changes in behavior among the voters. If there is no change in behavior, then things will be worse for users who are not earning much. The whole point of the hardfork though is to drive a change in behavior.

25.08.2019 16:56
1

Good point. I guess we will have to wait and see. You guys are a gazillion times more knowledgeable than I am about the inner workings of this place so I’ll side with your background and expertise.

I just know that IF behaviors do not change, we are certainly in trouble. If we struggled to get new users to come and stay before....

But I’m hopeful.

Posted using Partiko iOS

25.08.2019 17:00
1

We are all crabs in the bucket.

25.08.2019 14:18
1

This goes a long way to solving a fundamental problem with Steem, and that is the automated systems that take a little slice of Steem (basically a transaction fee) to provide a service that solves a problem that these systems created in the first place.

Upvote bots are not a long term sustainable business model, and it's obvious that the velocity of Steem has plummeted even as the price drops and the supply inflates. While the bots can be used to fund a project, Steem-engine is even more effective to fund a project in that users will fund a good idea, instead of someone running a bidbot to fund a project that they personally think is great but may flop because it wasn't something users want.

Steem is prepped to take an evolutionary step, and the bidbots are going to shrink in the broader ecosystem where creativity and innovation get the funding instead of a vote-ception market. Once more users are using apps and playing games that use steem-engine and the token market, vote bots will die anyway and be replaced with communities that collectively vote where the good content is, instead of letting their account be used for paid upvotes that only reinforce a need for paid upvotes to keep the circle jerk going.

End of an era, beginning of a new era. The negativity surrounding these changes is to be expected, but once the growth and potential of a broader system is realized, the developers who are simply in for a quick buck will be forced to compete in a broader software market against other talent for funding, which will increase the price of Steem on the open market and incentivize developers to produce content that users actually want.

HF 21 gives hope.

25.08.2019 17:04
2

Curation is now more profitable, so there is more reason to buy STEEM and power up.

Nope! problem is small authors/creators and groups who have less than a total of $4 in upvotes (97% of the users) just had there rewards cut by 33%.....

You just drove off 50% of your people and now bid bot owners (who are whales like markymark just got a free boost of 200%... you just incentized less worse content and paid bot owners more....

Members of the community who have good ideas and are willing to put in work to improve the platform will have a mechanism to get paid for it.

Are you talking about the foundation, because the top 20 witnesses didn't contribute anything in this hardfork, in fact they got more for nothing

Stakeholders will have a means to earn higher returns on their investment by doing something that is good for the platform (curating) as opposed to something that is arguably not (funding bid bots).

bs!

Curators who see content that is not adding value will downvote it, because it is taking rewards away from everybody else.

wow just incentized flaming and trolls of flag-rewards as opposed to correctly fixing issues with TOS and actual real system.

Curation communities and voting trails will form to hunt for undiscovered content and upvote it in order to earn higher curation rewards.

BIGGGEST LIE EVER!
Actually the NEW REWARD CURVE (read the math) disincentivizes groups of small users over larger stake holders! a group of small stakeholders upvoting a contest post $20 in total receives over 30% less in rewards then a single stakeholder upvoting $20 with a single vote. THIS IS BY FAR THE MOST DISGUSTING GRAB FOR MONEY I HAVE EVER SEEN!

Authors who are producing good quality content will have a higher chance of being noticed, because now more people are actually looking for good content.

How by taking the little money they were getting and now reducing it by 30% and giving less money to smaller starting guys? are you freaking kidding. You have just made everyone leave...and disincentived new users!

IN SUMMATION THIS IS A BIG DISCUSTING MONEY GRAB LIE!

26.08.2019 13:28
39

@timcliff, This will be time taking Process but for sure Culture Change is needed, if we will not change then change will change us itself. Stay blessed.

Posted using Partiko Android

26.08.2019 23:14
1

I just came across this post and I don't agree with creating a dichotomy between stakeholders and users on Steem. Especially when it's a post encouraging a new shift in culture. @curatorcat touched on this point a little, but nobody else seemed to mention this.

Surely there is a difference in approach between someone who has a larger stake in Steem and someone who is making posts and cashing out the rewards. There are also big differences between people's stake. However, if you're renewing the culture of Steem, the best way of doing so is to remind so-called users of Steem that they are stakeholders. This is the original intent and culture of Steem and I think it was a wise place to start.

To create a dichotomy by saying stakeholders vs. "users", and saying they need to work together, reinforces a dead-end culture for Steem.

14.09.2019 21:27
1

That is fair, and I definitely agree with the idea of emphasizing the fact that users are stakeholders. At the time the post was written though, the community was already quite polarized over the hardfork and how it benefited (large) stakeholders at the expense of “smaller stakeholders” (i.e. users). I understand the overlap and relationships between the two, I’m not trying to argue. The point probably would have been lost on the audience at the time though. Something to keep pushing as part of #newsteem for sure.

16.09.2019 05:50
0

This post has been revived by steem-forever and will get extra rewards. This happens when a post is upvoted on steem-bounty.com after the 7 day post life.

Users can simple upvote via steem-bounty.com continously, so posts can live and earn rewards forever.
Authors can share their steem-bounty.com links and get upvoted forever.

We hope this will allow everyone to earn more meaningful rewards over longer timeframes than before.

04.10.2019 18:09
2

FYI I don't think @spaminator really needs your delegation. lol

Why does Steemit focus of killing accounts?

If it wasn't for Steemleo.com I might be 100% back on Facebook. lol

17.10.2019 13:10
0

What’s the issue?

17.10.2019 16:20
2

I finally made the hit list and noticed that even without your delegation they have plenty of power to kill off all the accounts on their hit list.

18.10.2019 00:14
0

What did you do to get on it?

18.10.2019 01:28
2

I think about a week ago. Maybe 2 weeks.

18.10.2019 13:00
0

No, not when - what? What did you do to get on the list?

18.10.2019 14:41
1

I think maybe protesting? Could have been using bots though. Hard to say. I think I'm on both spaminator's list and Mackbot's. At least my comments aren't banned from the platform yet like coininstant's. lol

18.10.2019 19:30
2

You could try talking to them. They are usually willing to back off if it was targeting a specific behavior and the behavior stops.

19.10.2019 01:16
1

Plerase undelegate to and/or take me off the @spaminator hitlist!.

02.11.2019 13:39
1

I have no control over the list. Have you reached out and talked to them?

02.11.2019 14:39
0

I have no control
Over the list. Have you reached
Out and talked to them?

                 - timcliff


I'm a bot. I detect haiku.

02.11.2019 14:39
0

I guess I need to go on discord or something??? I'm not even sure how I can find them on discord or if it is even possible to find them on discord. For all I know I am completely SOL.
Feel free to share any ideas you may have. :(
I realized killing accounts was a key feature of Steemit.com but I guess now it's like the #1 priority by far. lol

02.11.2019 15:01
2

Here is a link to their discord. If you go there and try to have an adult conversation about why they are downvoting your account and what you can do to resolve the situation, then they should be able to help. If you go in there with an entitled attitude and vent about what they should/shouldn’t be able to do with their stake - it is a lot less likely to be productive.

https://discord.gg/7FkETjJ

02.11.2019 21:15
1

I think guiltyparties runs Spaminator and I think he took me off. :)
I think https://discord.gg/wNJuwfV is the correct discord.
Hopefully they start checking their replies on Steemit but I guess they only run on discord.

03.11.2019 14:01
1

Cool, glad you got it figured out.

03.11.2019 15:33
1